110 Safety, Security and Surveying in Saudi Arabia with Craig Ross

Marion Ellis 0:00

Have you ever made mistakes? Or 100%?

Craig Ross 0:03

Lots and lots and lots of mistakes, but that’s where you learn, isn't it? That's the sweet spot about how you learn because those things you've remember your mistakes far more than your successes, you know, the things you do well, you're far more likely to remember those things. You have embarrassed yourself in front of a client. And you know, you've said something after meeting and yeah, those things. I think the biggest learning points I have are definitely those because you've made a mistake or you failed. But the APC for example, I failed the first time I did it, and that was best thing that could have happened to me to be honest. After Uni, I got a first degree, I thoughtI was, it’s an expression Scotland, I thought I was Archie. My head was massive, I knew exactly what I'm doing. When I came through APC I failed, and looking back it was it was one of the best things.

Marion Ellis 0:53

Welcome to The Surveyor Hub Podcast, the podcast for surveyors who just love what they do. I'm Marion Ellis and in today's episode, I chat with Craig Ross, a Chartered Surveyor who many of you may know from his time working for the RICS in London as an associate director for the built environment. Craig's now relocated to Saudi Arabia and is the Senior Manager for Safety and Security at the Diriyah Gate Development Authority in Riyadh. In this podcast, we chat about the career shifts Craig has had over the years, his focus for ensuring the public interest is protected, for safe and secure built environment, and how his past experiences shaped that view. So welcome to the podcast, Craig, thank you very much. Now, when I get my guests, your guests, when I get my guests to book in, I asked you a few questions. So you can have a bit of an idea or some of the things you know, we might might talk about, or see where the conversation goes. And it's been a little while since we, we spoke and a meta has taken ages to get this in the diary, as well. And I record them in in advance. So as we're recording this, it's December just started December here in the UK. And this will probably go out early in the new year. So who knows what political changes they might be in the UK by then or whether England have won the World Cup. Who knows. But a lot has happened since we met when you were working at the RICS and you know in a different parts of the world do something a bit different. So I'm really interested to find out what you've been up to. But for for for listeners, because I'm useless at doing intros. So just introduce yourself to those who are listening and explain a bit about your way you started out and various bits and pieces. And we'll take it from there. Yeah, sure, sure.

Craig Ross 2:45

So I'm originally a chartered building surveyor. That's my some professional background and feel like I started working in pasture in Scotland. And it was I was very lucky in that I got an apprenticeship by Chartered Surveyors form when I was quite young, 17 Odd. My girlfriend at the time had a beautiful little surprise and my girlfriend I fell pregnant. And so I've got a lovely daughter who is 35 Now, given my given my age, so that that really meant that full time University was out for me. And I was kind of thankful when he started I found the surveyors from the took me on as an apprentice and that was because I'd done work experience here believe it or not, when I was like 16 got on really well with a farm really loved the work didn't have a clue what I wanted to do before that, so really kind of fell into surveying and it was such a fortuitous thing, but I absolutely loved it, it worked. What the path for a long time, I was with a firm for about 15 years 16 years. So you know really kind of cut my teeth there and progressed through the I did a part thing degree, which was direct I did a part time course in Architectural Technology first because it tends to be project funded and then did my Building Surveying degree part time. So therefore one thing and there was a bit automatic and there was a midlife crisis or wanted to run away enjoying army. So that took a bit of time out from serving. And that's where I got into the sort of security aspect of your, like, tours in Afghanistan love that.

Marion Ellis 4:11

You literally ran away to the army. Yeah,

Craig Ross 4:13

i. So Dubai this then this is: 2013

Marion Ellis 5:42

Oh, there's so many things on a one on pick there. But firstly, I'm just jealous that you're somewhere quite warm, although you seem to be wearing a jumper, which makes me feel

Craig Ross 5:51

it's because the air conditioning in the office they love to keep it super cold, it is freezing. So it's a it's nice and hot inside a jumper, which

Marion Ellis 5:58

makes me feel like making you feel like you're at home right now. Welcome. That's really interesting. It can ask when you you're gonna set your first career when you were doing the Building Surveying at the first firm? Was that residential? Or was that commercial or what kind of

Craig Ross 6:15

open there was, there was mixed use and to be honest, that the focus was probably more on the project side of historic buildings. So that going on the office, Henry, an awesome client base and very wealthy people and some very big projects, residential projects, normally, mostly in Scotland, and all over the UK, typically listed buildings. So it's actually more like, you know what, so a lot of survey work in terms of measured surveys, a lot of architectural designs, but there was architects in the office working with us as well, and condition surveys and conditions, what is easily done as part of that refurbishment package or extension package. But it was.

Marion Ellis 6:53

gthy career, you know, was it: 1517

Marion Ellis 7:56

then Alright, time given what we just saw out, but it was just ah, that world travel, that must have been quite a big meal to go and do that. Had you ever traveled much? I mean, for your work you might not have But had you been a you know, a globe? Trotter in other sense.

Craig Ross 8:12

Yeah, to somebody to some extent, but not not really to that part of the world and, you know, traveling for holidays more than anything else. It wasn't like traveling to therefore, but certainly not that far afield for work, you know, some things abroad, but not not certainly not that far afield. So you have a bit of a leap of faith, to be honest, there's a lot of conversations going back and forth with employers and the two of whom were British and they talked through their own experiences, they had a very good HR team that talks through the process of coming out what what to expect, you know, how they assist with getting accommodation for the first little time because it is a big commitment. You know, we think about our construction moving house is difficult and often you when you're moving country to say what you do your stuff, how

Marion Ellis 8:49

will you do that? Sort of by yourself? Or did you have family that was leaving with by

Craig Ross 8:53

myself? Yeah, by myself? Yeah. Which made it a lot easier to be honest in this thing. Right? Do you have a family it's it's, it's a lot more difficult, a lot, a lot more complexity to try and factor into the equation. But that was relatively easy. I think it's just, it's a big commitment, but definitely most well.

Marion Ellis 9:11

And I've actually just remembered I did We did an earlier podcast with two ladies, Joanna and Clementine who actually work out in Dubai. And you know, for me, it just seems like such an alien concepts to move out like Victoria terrorists had to live somewhere else, but I'm gonna sort of open my eyes a lot more, maybe we will find we will travel. But it is a big move. And I guess, no matter where you whether you're moving country or just moving job, you said it's a leap of faith. You know, you've got that that certainty that comfort zone, you know where you are. And surveyors estimates are not very, you know, risk averse, or the real risks. We don't like to take, you know, big leaps of faith, faith like that, but I guess the opportunities come along. What Sounds like made a difference though is sort of that sort of helping you settle in and get organized you know where to live and and those things mister make quite a difference.

Craig Ross: 10:07

Yeah, definitely you'll be you're right it'll be take calculated risks still being Yes, that was probably the one of the easiest decisions and certainly move on over on the play that kind of came to thinking oh my god like this is this is me moving to a different country for a long period of time but yeah most most foreign certainly the more established surveyors from do have that kind of package where they understand that people especially expats moving from abroad, need that kind of support. Generally speaking, you will have some kind of relocation package no such things as the temporarily you know, get that assist you with the process of getting your visa and getting a residence and all that stuff.

Marion Ellis: 10:46

So what kind of anywhere? Obviously chartered, then so obviously, did your chartered status then help you get the role?

Craig Ross: 10:54

They did? Yeah. For the role. Definitely. I mean, they were after a chartered building surveyor with experience leading a team that was the crux of the conflict while the star of the conversation if you like, definitely a, an essential part for him and all the heads of department if it's a multi discipline surveying firms to be residential valuations, commercial valuations with plant and machinery, project, mental consultancy, all headed up by Chartered Surveyors, which was, which was great.

Marion Ellis: 11:18

I just want to touch on you said, you sort of studied part time for your degree and qualifications. How did you find that, or any sort of tips for for listeners, because I know, I mean, I, you know, took a few years out before I then got my my degree, it took forever to get chartered getting the right work experience and things. And I know, there's a lot of students of learners trainees, wherever they want to call themselves. A when people are studying part time and working. It's hard as hell, but you're building the most amazing resilience and adaptability. And when I see people who've done that, not that it's easy just to go through school, and then you know, get qualified, but it's character building in in many ways, but it's really hard. How did you find it?

Craig Ross: 12:05

Youth in terms of time, it was tough, I must admit, because you know, you're working full time, four days a week, and you're gonna, it's not like a full time to either getting squeezed into one day, it takes a bit longer. I think, overall, the actual degree part took me six years, instead of you know, I don't know what I think is like three or four, isn't it for your normal bachelor's degree. So there's a wee bit of extra time to fit it in the middle of our study at night, obviously. But I think the benefit of doing a part time degree is you're applying what you're learning at university, in real time at your job. And certainly, I found that all there was there was a few of us studying part time. And the audit really quite well. When it comes to exam thing. I think, number one, we tend to be a wee bit older, as well, the students are, you know, straight from from school and going through that part, it can attainment as the more seasoned veterans, us, we're kind of, we missed out on that. But it, you so much focus a lot more time on your studies. And because your boss is paying for your studies, your view, certainly apply yourself a bit more often.

Marion Ellis: 13:07

And I see that actually a lot on the residential side, we have a lot of people, you know, come into residential surveying as a second career almost. But I think again, that's great, because you, you bring that life experience with you. And when you're dealing with, particularly the residential side, you walk into people's homes, you walk into their lives, and you don't know what you're going to see or what you're going to have to deal with. And sometimes we feel like social workers or whatever, but you've got to be able to emotionally process that, you know, even if it's not bad stuff, you know, and I think that maturity really, really helps. Can I ask you about working at our ICs? Or rather, what made you want to do that? You know, so you, sorry, you you work do you then had to time out when you went to, you know, in the army as an Army you were in? Yeah. And then how did the working with our ICS come about?

Craig Ross: 13:59

So that the two reasons really at that point, I've done five years with my firm in in Dubai and I felt it was time for a change. So I have to fight the hub. It's typically about pension scheme that it's called end of service gratuity, that's a legal requirement for your company to pay you excellent. When you leave, that jumps up. After five years, a lot of people will do five years before they consider moving on to the five years is coming up. It was time to relocate my wife was pregnant, we were expecting a little boy. And I saw we were talking about going back to the UK, we saw the position being advertised on RICS. And you know, the stars aligned again. And that was really it. I went I flew over to London to meet Gary and Ken who was the head of the department and that thing to discuss the role that you know, we talked through my experience, etc, etc. And that was signed up and it was great. I thoroughly enjoyed my time on it. Yes. So what year was that? To split it into 2088

Marion Ellis: 15:00

And because you were you involved in the Grenfell

Craig Ross: 15:04

or? Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah quite heavily. So guardi is after Grenfell was a huge focus on ICS on the fire safety front and galleys rule that he sort of changed to fire safety leads, and there was a lot of core Building Surveying things that were that were getting left that as a result, so entities and for Highland, you know, me is the Associate Director for built environment. But I found more and more I was getting involved with Gary on the the post Greenfield response, I think there were there's a lot of work in groups on incompetence on new regulations of the building safety bill, Fire Safety Act, etc, etc. So it really does split our resources within those things, which, you know, really, really interesting time very worthwhile work, obviously, a lot of collaboration with the lower professional bodies, government, and everybody else had a stake and the new fire safety regulations really interested time,

Marion Ellis: 16:01

I guess. I mean, you know, we're, we're still talking about grand fellows, we, as we record this, it's now coming to the end of the inquiry, you know, so there'll be more that comes out from that. What I always find frustrating is that, sometimes we can be very reactive, you know, something happens, and then we go back and look at regulation standards, it's not just our ICS is, you know, across everything, you know, then we go back and have a look, and check and see. And you you, if you do or I do wonder, why can't we just flip it around and saying, when we're creating these building regulations and putting these things together, that we can't join the dots? What is it? Why is it so hard to join those dots? Before, you know, beforehand, or at least create that environment? Because we see it? You know, at the moment here in the UK, we're talking a lot about spray foam insulation, and how whether it's good or not, and all of those things, and it's quite, quite tense. I think it's fair to say that it's all, you know, reactive, we've got a problem. Now we've got to sort out, you know, the rules or regulations policy, you know, not just for surveyors, but for installers and, and others and the public are at a disadvantage, because even if they bring in EU regulations and standards and ways of doing things, we've still got people who have problems in their homes or whatever. That just might be for saying I'm frustrated for do you. Did you see that? I mean, how do you say to that?

Craig Ross: 17:36

Yeah, I think you're you're right, Martin, there is a degree of reactive reactivity isn't there's something something's got to happen for there to be a fairly big shift? I think. I mean, there's a few reasons for that isn't, I think, some things, it's money, you know, some things, it's, it's very financially driven. And unless there's a real impetus for people to change their working practices, or do something differently, or create new regulations that make a significant change, there really has to be some kind of government push drive behind the oral health and safety thing that great Oh, that's a combination of both. But yeah, you're right. I mean, the competence thing, especially in something that can, there's lessons to be learned in not just in, in fire safety from Glenvale, on spray foam insulation from, you know, products that are causing problems. And I think surveyors can see it that often first ones didn't notice there's an issue and, and you're doing multiple inspections, or surveys, or whatever it is, and you see recurring problems, that's when you start to recognize them, say, in the spray foam, I took something that was brought up a few times when I was working at ACS, and that's a project that Sam replica who's in are taking the role with, with Gary, after I left is, is really kind of pushing forward with that very difficult, very difficult, you know, you thought installers who are fighting tooth and nail to keep those kind of products in the market, whether that's ethical or not, it's generally all that you just say that. But

Marion Ellis: 18:59

yeah, I guess you know, you've got a piece of technology, you know, whether it's spray phone or computers or whatever, that has the potential to do something good. But if you don't join the dots of how is this going to be used? What's the current housing stock, like in the UK, pull all of those bits together, then you can just see where the gaps happen or the loopholes where, you know, the Cowboys can come in and do whatever they do. You know, it just creates opportunity for things to to go wrong. What other kinds of things did you work on while you're at our ICs?

Craig Ross: 19:34

There's a few there's a few guidance notes, technical due diligence. Stubbornness was a big part of their own was working with members. It was it was a strange time when I was there. I remember I used to have the professional group boards. And there was our drive kicked off before I started called professional groups. 2021 RICS to see. Yeah, it wasn't a very popular choice to be honest though. was a bit of firefighting to do with that. And a lot of the meetings that I first had was a lot of chest book and grin on your face. Yes. What did they do? For me? It was kind of conversations. But a lot of it, a lot of those were very positive discussions in that we, as a group, have identified this particular problem, what can we do about it, and that was a very rewarding part of the job working with members who were, you know, at the sharp pain that the cool face, we're going to call it experts in their particular field, developing something worthwhile that made our profession better known as double studied awarding, so gaining slots were typically the the way that those things are communicated. And that was for a range of topics with ppm, technical due diligence,

Marion Ellis: 20:44

I think it's, as we're talking now, we're sort of post Velebit and Bashaud. And there'll be a new leadership, hopefully in 2023, at our ICs. You know, it's definitely hopefully moving in the right direction. But you're absolutely right, if we don't, one of the key things I think, is however, our ICS is managed and run as a dozen, an organization and members, membership organization, if we don't have the people doing the job, the technical experts in whatever shape and form having a place where they can have a voice and come together, then how on earth, you know, are we going to get the right rules, regulations, standards, and see that as a proactive supportive thing going forward, rather than reactive, you know, you've been told off, you've got to do it this way. I think most most members of any, you know, professional organization, I think this is exclusive to sorry, to our ICs. And a lot of surveyors are members of other organizations, it's being able to share what we're seeing those really early trends, you know, when you know, they just go you're at our ICs. And then we're talking about spray foam, we've been talking about spray foam in this video hub for forever. And yet now it's any come to a point because it's come to two ahead. So it's been able to nip those things in the bud or at least provide some thinking and thought leadership. But you know, sometimes we did, I did a podcast with Professor John Edwards when talking about retrofits and things, you know, and he was saying, quite rightly, that some of the technology, the methods, the things that we're doing, we don't know, actually, if they're going to work long term we think they do. And so you've got to have those checks and balances. And that's something that often worries me is do we have the right rules? And how do we stress test them? I guess, you know, and keep the conversation going. So that it's never a static, you know, rule. I know that makes it a lot easier. Sometimes it gives people certainty and lenders certainly certainty, but it's, we've got to keep the it's a moving piece, isn't it?

Craig Ross: 22:49

Yeah, it's very much a moving target. And that's a really good point on the retrofitting aspect and all join them quite well. You're starting to notice groups. He's an expert that we would lean on quite heavily for an input especially into the retrofitting thing that's hastened point where you do hope there is a bit of test and adjust and you proceed with the guidance that you have given you have to adjust that guidance you're going to have to change working practices when you start to realize defects. But that's probably probably one of the most significant concerns at the moment isn't the amount of retrofitting they'll have to go on and, and the implications of that having professionals that know what they're doing providing advice rather than people just jumping in and starting to spray insulation all over the place and stick insulation on external walls, John's got some fantastic photos of really bad retrofit. Installation, let's fix to be sure that we want to put up

Marion Ellis: 23:41

on the on the one hands on the commercial side, it seems or is it feels a bit more organized. And commercial property is a lot easier because you haven't got people in the way in terms of the open consumers and people living in their homes. And so that always makes things a lot simpler, or, you know, more complex when you're dealing with with the residential side of things. And again, you know, we we've not long had the news about the little boy who died or died of mold inhalation in the UK. And we can go and give advice. But we've also got to look at that whole piece together. And remember the the business and we're in something that I remember talking to Malcolm Hollis about we've always got a bit of a joke, you know who we are, what can you repair with them flush band and duct tape. I even asked him that on the podcast. I think it's almost embarrassing moments because apparently is really bad at DIY. I think pottery was blessed with a bit of pottery, that's incorrect. But when you see these sort of DIY repairs, you know, it's really easy I think as as professionals to criticize that but ultimately, some people are just doing their best to have no money on this stuff will stick or glue it down and it'll get them through. You know, and I and there's a big sort of education piece in terms of built in but Armand how to look after, you know, homes, we're not taught that stuff in school, we're not taught how to cook. So we have Jamie Oliver and his books teaching us in dinner ladies and everything, you know, and maybe there's more of that, that that that we need to start to look at, you know? Yeah, that's, that's right.

Craig Ross: 25:17

Yes, especially homeowners some things, it's the least expensive option, let's just, you know, that's just reality, isn't it, especially now, with the cost of living crisis and the energy prices going through the roof and whatnot, you're gonna want to do something. And generally speaking of can you afford a charge of air to come along and give you advice on things, it's just not the case. I think our ICS has got a big, popular or well known enough voice, let's say to make the review. And those things, you've got things like consumer guys that really need to be pushed out that I think are a great idea where people can understand what they maybe need to do, and at least make a kind of more educated decision about what they're gonna do before they go to the expense of getting a professional and going down a particular road.

Marion Ellis: 26:00

Yeah, I think that's, I mean, they're there to act in the public advantage. And if we can't give certainty, on certain things that the lots of different reasons, what we can do is help people ask the questions, and a great website for, for people listening to check out, there's a lady called Kate Faulkner, who is in the surveyor hub, and she come and teach us surveyor, but she's really one of the best surveys. That sounds amazing. We have talked a lot about the property market, but she has a website called propertychecklists.co.uk . And it's checklists for properties, you know, questions to ask things to things to do. And people love a checklist. And I think that's the kind of thing that we as surveyors can contribute to, or RICS could even start to get to because you don't have to give people the answer. You know, if we haven't got it, that's okay. People just want some guidance and to be able to feel empowered to go and go and do the next thing don't lay. Can I? You talked about security, and getting involved in security. And when I when I read this, I'll be honest, Craig, I started to think about, I don't know whether you've seen it, that TV program in the UK called The Bodyguard. And there's this Scottish guy, and he's involved in security and with the home office, and things get blown up. And I just thought security built environment. That's Craig and that division have now got in my head, just quite flattering. But tell me a bit about the kind of work that you do. Because I'm really interested in, you know, the the Army veteran side, because it's quite a lot of, you know, I know, we've got a few networks in the survey hub. And there's a group on LinkedIn, of veterans who are looking to work or move over. And I think surveying is a brilliant profession and all the different guises and lots of skills. But how did that sort of come together? And what does built environment security look like?

Craig Ross: 27:52

Good questions saw this building foam security is something that's always there. And regardless of the size of project, there's for smaller projects, domestic size projects, things that is mandated by the Building Regulations, you know, you've got to know that the very obvious things locks and doors, alarms, you know, that kind of stuff that you might expect to see on larger projects in what we call iconic buildings where there's a direct terrorism threat, there's probably things that may be less so obvious in terms of how security is planned into a project. Certainly, one master plan will be working for you as a master plan that will be you've got a whole load of different disciplines who advise on the architecture and the sustainability on waste management in all sorts of things that get built into project from the planning stages overs and security is very much one of them in this region. It's it's been mandated by law that you know, there's certain things have to happen. There's a higher commissions for investment security, for example, that set standards, there's the Ministry of Interior that sets standards for CCTV and what I've noticed in the UK and there's regulations that people have to follow when it comes to critical national infrastructure, for example. So it's really security in the bottom barrel, something that you often don't see it I find that quite interesting where especially if you're doing surveys as a as a building severe of commercial offices, those types of things might not be a patent. And it's important to understand what kind of security might have been designed into a building that you're not instantly aware of.

Marion Ellis: 29:19

And Kai asked quite a naive question was about security is this threat to life, terrorists, there's crepes burglars broken in the back door is

Craig Ross: 29:30

the whole lot. The whole lot is typically you the foot the stepping stone would be a security threat and risk assessment and that's where a security consultant or it depends on who's working on the project. This might be the master plan or it might be an individual consultant, maybe part of their architectural practice will do a risk assessment and typically this this afford to do cataclysm, terrorism thing, terrorism is very low likelihood you get a lot of interesting facts and figures you're more likely to be killed by a vending machines and water terrorists, you know, but the impact is such that, you know, people, it could be a lot of people could be killed or injured, crime is the opposite, it's high likelihood, you're far more likely to have somebody breaking into your house or breaking your building or stealing your laptop or whatever. But the impact is generally, you know, could be a financial thing, or somebody's lost a laptop, it's not, you know, in the big scheme of things, it's not a big deal. So that's generally the starting point, somebody identified the threat for a particular project that gets translated into some kind of risk assessment, and then that strategy will be developed for the building to counter those things, perhaps in combination with external stakeholders, like the police, or for more iconic and larger buildings and some kind of response unit. And that's actually the sort of thought process

Marion Ellis: 30:46

and does that. Does that also then include the construct the I guess, the the design and layout, but then also the construction materials? And that's where I guess the fire safety thing starts to then come in, doesn't it?

Craig Ross: 30:57

Yeah, there's there's a lot of overlaps, especially with fire safety. So the kind of the ironic thing, if you like, is security, more concerned with keeping people out? And fire safety is more concerned with letting letting people out? You know, that there's a bit of a conflict? There's, there's a lot of things that, especially for complex projects, really, do you know, what, of sitting around the table and chewing over the best solution?

Marion Ellis: 31:19

Yeah, that's really, that's really interesting. My husband, who I sometimes talk about on the podcast, who doesn't really know what I do, and I talk about him, and he doesn't know he doesn't listen. But he, he, he works in transport planning. And I remember him being involved in the relocation of a football stadium. And he showed me this sort of had little graphic that because he they were working on how do we get, like 20,000 people out of this stadium really quickly, you know, and he had this like, computer, these little dots, and they just sort of, you know, quickly made that within like, six minutes or whatever, you could get everybody out, and you can get them on the tube and doing things. And I remember just thinking, wow, there's been a lot of hanging around car parks and bus stops and things early on in his career. And I thought, Oh, this is really interesting. But you rewrite your notes of the Yes. How do you get protected? But also then how do you how do you get out for safety? And there's, there's two sides of it. The other thing that that comes to mind, and on a few things, actually, as we've been been talking, and I see this a lot with with my surveying is actually customer experience. The way we, you know, it's not just about being nice to people and having things done at the right time. It's thinking about, well, what's the purpose of the task at hand? What's the purpose of the building? Who are we here to help. And when I worked in residential surveying valuation, I dealt with lots of claims and PB Q's, and you name it. And on the financial services side, they had this thing called treating customers fairly TCF. And it was six principles that were brought in after the last recession have nots, it's about consistency of service, as much as you know, be kind and let everybody be aware of things. But it but it was about about consistency. And being with a panel firm, even though we weren't regulated by them, our clients weren't. So I would tie line ourselves to it, because we would help help make our clients lives easier that they can tick boxes for their regulator, I would look at things and say, you know, there was a risk that there was a risk that that could go wrong, there's a risk that this could happen. And that's when you start to then mitigate Well, what can you do, rather than thinking it's gone wrong? How do we, we fix it in that in reactive way, but look at everything, there is a risk that the customer doesn't get their survey within 10 days, like we've promised. So what can we do? Well, we don't give more than 10 days, or we find a different way way of doing it, there is a risk that this could go on fire, there's a risk that I think the more that we start to bring in some of those principles, you know, there's a risk that and this is what we can do about it, or at least explore it. That's when we start to get some of those ideas of how we shape and change things going forward. So actually security and me dealing with PV tos and complaints. isn't that far, far? We've gone

Craig Ross: 34:12

through the same process. That's absolutely right. You're, you're considering the vulnerabilities and things could go wrong. And then you're the mitigations how you treat that list, you know, whether you change your clients theater account for it, whether you transfer that to somebody else and get, I don't know, a fire engineer, let's say to the five aspects. It's exactly the same process. This is that that thought process is absolutely crucial. When it comes to complex projects. You've got multiple stakeholders involved, you've got 20 3040 people, something sitting around the table, all with a legitimate stake. Some things with conflicting viewpoints and kind of thinking about the potential issues that might arise. It's harder than you think. And, you know, getting getting the right process in place is absolutely crucial. But yes, no, it's the same process.

Marion Ellis: 35:01

I suppose the problem is though, if you then start to think what is the risk, you get so bogged down in all bloody everything can happen, everything that can go wrong, that you become so paralyzed by fear that you don't do anything proactive. You have lots of caveats in your reports and mechanisms that stops you actually doing the job. How do you? How do you get over that and move forward? Sometimes you just gotta, you know,

Craig Ross: 35:29

you've got to, you've got to be practical. Benchmarking is a good idea. You look at comparable projects and seal cubic invaded, this has never been an issue. You can never, it's important to know you can never cancel it risk completely. There's just this is impossible to do. You do have to take a practical stance, I guess when it comes to certain things like terrorism, for example, you know, because it's super low likelihood, does that mean that every single building should have glass roof windows, every single building should have standoff distance, it just doesn't work like that. You've really got to focus on the risks that are most important to your client, or the project or whatever you're working on, I

Marion Ellis: 36:04

guess. And, you know, there'll be a lot of a, I guess, younger or newer surveyors listening to this. Here in the UK, everybody's a bit worried about an increase in claims. Because then we have a recession, things start to go wrong. Not necessarily because today is for making mistakes. But when there's uncertainty out there, people get a bit scared, and they react in different ways. And on the lender evaluation side, you know, all the work we've done since the last recession in terms of better quality comparables, Rightmove and surveyors, comparables, tool and everything, we don't know if that's, that's enough. And so I think that's actually really good advice for budding and young surveyors out there is, you know, there is a risk to this job, but it is minimal. You know, I mean, when I've dealt with complaints and claims across the board for lots of different types of firms, you know, it's, it's a percent couple of percent of all the work that they do, it's just sometimes it can be quite expensive when it when it goes wrong, but then you've got to design your business and budget for that, which is what a lot of the bigger firms do, and take that as a calculated risk going forward. But yeah, it's a, it's hard when you're learning to, and you don't want to make mistakes, because you understand the consequences. I mean, have you ever made mistakes,

Craig Ross: 37:32

or 100%? Lots and lots and lots of mistakes, but those are you learn, isn't it? That's the sweet spot, how you learn because those things you'll you'll remember your mistakes far more than your successes, you know, the things you do? Well, you're far more likely to remember those things you have embarrass yourself in front of a client. And you know, you've said that after meeting and yeah, those things, I think the biggest learning ones I have are definitely those we've made a mistake or you failed, but the APC for example, I feel the first thing moved, and that was best. Yeah, that was the best thing that could have happened to me. After after uni, I got a first degree I thought it was gonna be an expression Scotland, I thought it was Archie. My head was, you know, massive is exactly what I'm doing. When it came to doing the APC field. And looking back it was it was one of the best things you could add ungenerous.

Marion Ellis: 38:21

What was that? Because you technically didn't know, or it was just sort of maturity and attitude.

Craig Ross: 38:26

It was a combination of things, you know, that that 100% responsibility myself, but the office I was in, it was a small practice. Nobody had gone to the APC process. And there was building some things there. But these qualified a long time ago, the process was different. I had an architect as a supervisor, and that wasn't his fault. It was you know, he he focused on what he knew that you know, the APC is there's a process there's no there's there's a structure to each APC interview and how it works and what to expect. I went in completely blind, I chose a very complex project, and was what I was working on a grade two listed building and in London, or near London, English regulations was kind of familiar with but not enough to be really grilled on stupid idea, you know, the APC chair and I say yes or no, and the reason I wasn't willing to do that was to be sensitive to people going through that kind of process myself and give my the APC candidates and supervisors and the best advice and the truth is simple project that you know, and so they don't choose something that you think is going to be impressive, and you're actually just shooting yourself in the foot.

Marion Ellis: 39:32

And that's the hard part. I mean, you know, I've been on the APC panels and things that as well and I guess when you're coming new into the profession, you've just got that in and just want to show that you can do this and you deserve this, and you want to show your best and it maybe it is a little bit showing off, you know, but that's okay. You totally get it. But you It's like learning to drive and pass your tests. You know, you don't have to do wheelies, do On the road or whatever it is, it is. And that's not to dumb down the APC in any way. But if you make it easy for us as assessors to mark you, it's easiest for us to, you know, help, or help you ask questions get it right. And there's nothing worse, there's two kinds of candidates that I used to hate to interview ones that were just really, really bad. But also ones that were just really, really good food first struggling to find anything and you want it meant to test their knowledge and they know it all. And you just really want to have a good chat with them. But you know, you don't want to do that. So the Yeah, can be really, really hard. Just to finish off, it's been really great to talk to you, I'd like to ask you about the kind of work that you're working on. Now. You talked about some developments and and things Yeah,

Craig Ross: 40:48

sure. So the project markers DNA. So this is one of the term Giga projects in Saudi Arabia's these big, big projects that Delaine from the wind being advertised, it's, I've seen it on can advertise on the TV in the UK. So there's our move called Vision 2030. So do you think Saudi Arabia's realized that they can rely on oil revenue forever, and they've got a diversification process underway, and part of that is the public investment funds a large fund that's deriving these large projects that are aimed at attracting new business, new tourism, etc, etc, to Saudi. So some of the Giga projects are neon alula, dia, and Didier gate as one was one of them. So essentially, it's the way I describe it simply as a new city getting built on the western edge of Riyadh, focused on this, actually, which is a UNESCO World Heritage Sites, the nasty style of architecture, your mud mud buildings, rendered your view of very beautiful buildings, the originals, the original save the state. So react can be moved from iteration, not in the nitrogen. So that this project in particular is being designed and built on that very specific style of architecture. It's been a very interesting project. But it's doing this the sheer scale of these projects. It's the huge number of staff working on the project, a huge number of consultants, developing the master plans with us, things have started on site. It's very interesting. So that's, that's where I sit in the master planning team. So myself and my colleagues were coming out in the security strategy with, for example, the government bodies and the security procedures and strategy gets filtered down into the master plan, and then into the individual bots. So that's it, they're not sure.

Marion Ellis: 42:48

And in my head, I've just got it's like creating Lego cities and building in. Yeah, wow. exciting projects,

Craig Ross: 42:59

then, yeah, that is the biggest, I think the one of the excavations here, brother, for an area called Darius square is I think it's the biggest excavation in the world at the moment, we did a site visit the other day, and I was absolutely blown away. More was been looking at things on plans for a long time that you can kind of grasp the skill, but until you're on site, and these projects, there's just absolutely,

Marion Ellis: 43:20

and that's the thing, I think, here in the UK, we have no idea of the scale, I guess we wouldn't do a projects like that. I mean, you think I can compare it to maybe is, you know, building the new towns that was Milton Keynes, for example, was was sprung into my industry, or mcarthurglen, outlet, village, VISTA, whatever it is, you know, we just don't have that kind of scale here. Do we were sort of making good with what we've got, which has a lot of challenges.

Craig Ross: 43:49

That's right. I mean, the the building stock in the UK is far more mature, isn't it? It's gone through that process already. It's there's been a huge expansion when you look at the size of one thing was to compare it with its nose. We've had that big expansion and we've got an amazing existing buildings thought critters. Certainly Dubai, Saudi at the moment, there's, there's far more new buildings

Marion Ellis: 44:09

to say. So it's all it's all new. Is there any older building that you know, or is the the looking to, because even you know, stuff that was built in the 70s, you know, is nearly 50 years old now. And are they are they looking thinking about sustainability in terms of how do they manage that existing stock and not make the same mistakes we have? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I

Craig Ross: 44:33

mean, to some extent, some of the buildings are especially needed by the woman. They're not that old, but they're getting to the each and every they do need a bit of TLC, the insight and even the remodel, there's the fire safety issue. What on earth cladding that's combustible. There's energy efficiency there needs to be retrofitted for for other reasons to keep the cooling rather than to keep the cool out if you know what I mean. But yeah, there's there's there's a lot of work, especially in those regions over the building stockist. getting to that age. Nobody needs specific advice from Chartered Surveyors. For example, there's there's a very expanding market. Let's see an existing building stock. She's very interested.

Marion Ellis: 45:10

And you say Chartered Surveyors and oversee the ISS is an international organization. Some people don't like that some people do personally, having seen the been on governing council and seeing the benefit of, you know, into what goes on internationally and how we make that relevant to a surveyor on a wet Tuesday in Margate, I think is really, really important. We really got to pay attention to that to that gap. But what's it like, you know, being a chartered surveyor abroad, do you really see the value of that membership and, and being able to you?

Craig Ross: 45:41

Yes, yes. And no, I think it depends on what's happening path for you at all. So, valuers for example, that SCS is very well known, the Land Department used to buy RICS is the understand ICS qualification or what people will understand that, especially experts and they understand why charts ova is for building Serbian it was slightly less so in that I learned when I first moved to Dubai second week, I thought hold on to that municipality, which is like the local council and say like I'm a chartered building surveyor and just interested in the development process. Can you talk me through the process of getting projects approved? And I said that? What did you What was the are you an engineer? No, then I don't want speech here. So there, it really depends on what path you're on. There's not a lot of building surveyors in the region. But there's a lot of excellent QRSs that a huge quantity surveying market, especially from India, Sri Lanka, fantastic, guys, which really shows the kind of spread about RICS until that region was the account, I can never remember the name of the educational facility for charts we are seeing in India that,

Marion Ellis: 46:44

yeah, the school has a built environment, actually, I think it used to be part of RICS. And I think it's now separated in in some way. But But can I even so, you know, it's, it's now somewhere else where people can get, you know, get qualified and doesn't matter where in the world? You are, you know, to get through it. And to get chartered is just take, we all feel proud of that. I'm going to just ask then. So when you've got if there's no rules as such, how do you approach a big plan, like the master plan that you've got, What rules do people follow?

Craig Ross: 47:22

That aren't regulations? Vary here, for example, is the Saudi building code, right? So the fire code, so there are there are regulations as such, it's, it's maybe better to think of it in terms of the planning process. So this is really this planning process. And developers wanted to build a new master plan, go through our approval process, which is almost like planning permission. And then you have dimensionality, or, here we have Mr. Who effectively check the building complies with the building code, it's a bit more like building control, like in the UK, so that there are processes, it's just the roles and responsibilities are slightly different. It's very difficult to do this thing working with a registered engineer is, you know, in the UK, this, you know, you could be a homeowner and submit plans to do the local authority your child to do an IUI.

Marion Ellis: 48:11

So not that one might be better than the other but which do you think is sort of easier to to navigate or better to?

Craig Ross: 48:20

Probably the UK only because I'm much more familiar with it, you know, especially the process in Scotland.

Marion Ellis: 48:27

It's all it's all disco up there, isn't it?

Craig Ross: 48:30

Oh, yeah. It's awesome. But yeah, that's, that's that's a fairly simple process. But I think that's maybe a bias on my part, because I'm fairly familiar with it.

Marion Ellis: 48:40

Yeah. But you know, sometimes you just need to see what's the other side and how people do things to to actually know yourself and what we do what we do better. Oh, Craig, it's been really lovely to talk to you today. Thanks ever so much for your time.

Craig Ross: 48:53

It's been great to see you again. Bye, bye.

Marion Ellis: 48:58

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to take a look at the show notes when you get a chance the resources and links we mentioned in the podcast. The lips vein podcast is not sponsored. So I'd really appreciate it if you could show your support by sharing the podcast with others leaving a review or simply buying us a coffee. You can find all the details on the love surveying.com website. I'll see you next time.