Episode 105

105 Celebrating a 50 Year Career in Surveying with Kathryn Ladley

Kathryn Ladley has over 50 years of experience in the construction industry, by profession as a quantity surveyor and project manager. She is also an Associate Director at NPS Leeds, one of the founder members of QSi, and the first female President of SCQS. She is married with two children and two grandchildren.

In this episode, we discuss her career path, how she dealt with gender disparity, and the challenges that arose as a woman surveyor and working mum – as well as the lessons she learnt during her 50-year career and the support she received along the way.

What we cover:

  • Why she believes women make good surveyors
  • The concept of work-life integration (rather than work-life balance)
  • Her involvement in the setup of an Intelligent Client Unit within Leeds City Council
  • Connecting with RICS members
  • How surveying changed over the years
  • The future of construction and technology
  • The values that drive us forward – why do we do what we do and what motivates us

Connect with Kathryn Ladley:

Connect with Marion:

Resources: 

The Surveyor Hub:

Transcript
Kathryn Ladley:

When I first started at college, the first lecturer I

Kathryn Ladley:

was ever in, the lecturer said, we're not here to teach you facts.

Kathryn Ladley:

We're here to teach you where to find those facts.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I think that is such a good point that you know, if you know where to look

Kathryn Ladley:

to find something, it doesn't matter that you don't know it at that time.

Kathryn Ladley:

And you know, I don't think it's sad that some people expect that

Kathryn Ladley:

you should just have all the answers at the tips of your fingers.

Kathryn Ladley:

It's, yeah, no, I can find out.

Kathryn Ladley:

I know what to do

Marion Ellis:

Welcome to the Surveyor Hub Podcast.

Marion Ellis:

The podcast for surveyors who just love what they do.

Marion Ellis:

I'm Marion Ellis, and in today's episode I catch up with Kathryn Ladley,

Marion Ellis:

a quantity surveyor and project manager.

Marion Ellis:

Kathryn was a founding member of QSi and the first female president of S C Q S.

Marion Ellis:

Given the average length of R I C S membership for a female is

Marion Ellis:

currently at around 16 years, I found it both remarkable and

Marion Ellis:

inspiring to learn, kathryn has been in construction for over 50 years.

Marion Ellis:

That's five zero, not one five.

Marion Ellis:

So get your boots on if you're off for a walk while you listen and I'll

Marion Ellis:

see you either end oh, and I'll be at the Sava Residential Careers Fair

Marion Ellis:

on the 29th of March in Coventry.

Marion Ellis:

Do pop along and say hello, and I'll put a link to the event in the show notes.

Marion Ellis:

so welcome to the podcast, Kathryn.

Marion Ellis:

Thank

Marion Ellis:

you.

Marion Ellis:

Nice to talk to you again.

Marion Ellis:

It is, yeah.

Marion Ellis:

It's been a while and I think, oh, I think our pass have crossed in lots

Marion Ellis:

of different ways over the years.

Marion Ellis:

I've seen your name about, and I know you've written a few different articles

Marion Ellis:

for different publications of, I've seen you, you pop up even though,

Marion Ellis:

we're in different types of surveyor.

Marion Ellis:

Cuz you are a QS and project manager.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

Is that right?

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

so, so look, introduce yourself.

Marion Ellis:

Tell the, listeners a bit about, Kathryn and what kind of work do you do now?

Kathryn Ladley:

Right.

Kathryn Ladley:

I suppose, I don't know much quantity survey, and it is a simple

Kathryn Ladley:

answer, but that happens to us all as we, we get further up the tree.

Kathryn Ladley:

I started life as a quantity surveyor on a degree course, bachelor's degree

Kathryn Ladley:

course that lead to polytechnic in 1970.

Kathryn Ladley:

So it, I've just had my sort of 50th anniversary of that.

Kathryn Ladley:

it was difficult.

Kathryn Ladley:

I was the only girl on the course and I'd gone from a convent school, a

Kathryn Ladley:

girls' convent school, totally naive, no idea what I was like myself in for.

Kathryn Ladley:

but ended up there and.

Kathryn Ladley:

Gave it all up after a few months because I was finding it so hard.

Kathryn Ladley:

What was

Marion Ellis:

it?

Marion Ellis:

What was it that was hard?

Marion Ellis:

Was it just the culture or the work

Kathryn Ladley:

or, well, I don't think 18 year old boys are very mature.

Kathryn Ladley:

. Marion Ellis: Oh,

Kathryn Ladley:

. Kathryn Ladley: And they thought

Kathryn Ladley:

And I think I was the first girl that had ever done a full-time course

Kathryn Ladley:

at later Polytechnic in the, you know, in the building department.

Kathryn Ladley:

And when the lecturers came in, could see them looking, you know,

Kathryn Ladley:

oh, there she is, sort of thing.

Kathryn Ladley:

And we'd hand in coursework and they'd pick the first one

Kathryn Ladley:

off the pile and look at it.

Kathryn Ladley:

And then he'd say, oh, and now we'll have the woman's view,

Kathryn Ladley:

and he'd search for mine.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know?

Kathryn Ladley:

And it was just this feeling that I was always on.

Kathryn Ladley:

you know, that I couldn't not go to the lecture because

Kathryn Ladley:

everybody knew I wasn't there.

Kathryn Ladley:

I couldn't not do my coursework.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I suppose in some ways that helped because I had to do it,

Kathryn Ladley:

but at the time it just felt I was being picked on a bit, I think.

Kathryn Ladley:

and it was, I sort of got to the point where I thought, I can't do this anymore.

Kathryn Ladley:

And one morning there was a train strike, a bus strike, sorry.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I thought, that's it.

Kathryn Ladley:

I'm not going ever again.

Kathryn Ladley:

That's the end of it.

Kathryn Ladley:

And my dad came in and said, come on, I've got you a lift to the station.

Kathryn Ladley:

I'll take you to, you know, we'll go to the station, he can get the train in.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I was sat on the trailer, tears streaming down my eyes

Kathryn Ladley:

cuz I didn't want to do it.

Kathryn Ladley:

and then something just clicked and I thought sudden, you know, I can do it.

Kathryn Ladley:

I'm going to do it.

Kathryn Ladley:

And went and.

Kathryn Ladley:

Just ignored it all, really, I think is

Marion Ellis:

the best way I think.

Marion Ellis:

I think sometimes you just, find that fire in your belly.

Marion Ellis:

, you know, and you won't be put down.

Marion Ellis:

And I guess if you've got the support of your dad and people around you there

Marion Ellis:

ran, you know, by hookah, by crook, they're gonna get you there, you know,

Marion Ellis:

and when you feel supported, you can push through things and a hard time.

Marion Ellis:

what actually inspired you to do the course in the first place?

Kathryn Ladley:

well, I do, I wasn't going to do it.

Kathryn Ladley:

I, my first choice was architecture.

Kathryn Ladley:

my dad was a brickler, so I'd always had that element of building in my background.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I've always loved buildings, you know, I still have that, love today.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I suppose that's why I'm still working at 71.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, it's, I enjoy being part of that process.

Kathryn Ladley:

but I plan to do architecture.

Kathryn Ladley:

Partly, I suppose, because I knew there were a few women going

Kathryn Ladley:

into architecture at that time.

Kathryn Ladley:

And right at the last minutes, I applied for the survey course

Kathryn Ladley:

and when I got my A level results, I could have done either I, I was

Kathryn Ladley:

accepted at schools of Architecture.

Kathryn Ladley:

It bit different to how things are now with the universities,

Kathryn Ladley:

but I was, accepted at Lead School of Architecture, whole School of

Kathryn Ladley:

Architecture and one in Oxford as well.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I'd applied for this quantitative vein costs in, Italy's just as a backup.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I still don't know to this day why I opted to go for the Qantas event,

Kathryn Ladley:

but it was the right choice for me.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, something guided me and it was what I.

Marion Ellis:

And it's when you just trust your gut instinct.

Marion Ellis:

I think sometimes.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And as surveyors, I talk about this a lot with surveyors when I coach some,

Marion Ellis:

we lose that ability sometimes with all the rules that we have around us

Marion Ellis:

and things that we're meant to do.

Marion Ellis:

We forget to trust our gut instinct.

Marion Ellis:

And I had very similar, because I was gonna do a planning course.

Marion Ellis:

and I ended up doing a estate management and surveying.

Marion Ellis:

and I married a planner instead.

Marion Ellis:

And I'm so glad I did not do planning.

Marion Ellis:

I'd have been awful , but you know, you, you just think, no, I'm gonna better

Marion Ellis:

myself and do something different.

Marion Ellis:

Well,

Kathryn Ladley:

I ended up marrying a quantity surveyor, so I was assistant

Kathryn Ladley:

in my, I worked for the city council for the three months between my

Kathryn Ladley:

first and second year at college.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I met him then.

Kathryn Ladley:

And, it all had to be kept very secret because you weren't

Kathryn Ladley:

allowed to do things like that in

Marion Ellis:

those days.

Marion Ellis:

And, you know, there's lots of, husband and wife teams actually who are surveyors.

Marion Ellis:

, you know, and I do think, my god, what do people talk at night?

Marion Ellis:

Talk at night, and what if you're different flavors of surveyors?

Marion Ellis:

You know, I always

Kathryn Ladley:

found it helped because if you'd had a really bad

Kathryn Ladley:

day, you didn't have to explain Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

What had gone wrong.

Kathryn Ladley:

He knew.

Kathryn Ladley:

, you know, he'd been there, done that and could understand why I was so frustrated

Kathryn Ladley:

by even some of the trivial things.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, it's what makes, yeah, you tick and what makes things go wrong sometimes.

Kathryn Ladley:

But, yeah, I mean, , I, it was all very different then when I'd, when I was

Kathryn Ladley:

still at school, I planned to leave when I was 16 after my goal levels.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I applied for a job, with a building contractor.

Kathryn Ladley:

They were advertising for a trainee surveyor.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I got a letter back saying, virtually, no, you're a girl.

Kathryn Ladley:

You can't consider you for this, but if anything comes up in the

Kathryn Ladley:

typing problem, we'll let you know.

Kathryn Ladley:

So to think, and that just infuriated me so much.

Kathryn Ladley:

And, you know, I carried on doing what I was doing, but even when I went

Kathryn Ladley:

for the, I went onto the council's career grade at the end of my time.

Kathryn Ladley:

at college.

Kathryn Ladley:

But, I had to do my year out somewhere.

Kathryn Ladley:

So I did that at the council, and I was interviewed by the Chief Qs,

Kathryn Ladley:

and by that time I was engaged.

Kathryn Ladley:

I'd got my engagement ring and he actually said to me, is that an engagement ring?

Kathryn Ladley:

Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

You're not going to do anything about it.

Kathryn Ladley:

Are you ? And I said, oh, no.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I was getting married three months later, . But if I'd said, yes, I'm getting

Kathryn Ladley:

married, I wouldn't have got the job.

Kathryn Ladley:

That would've been the end of it.

Marion Ellis:

and it might feel quite alien to a lot of younger

Marion Ellis:

women and men out there, but there was a time when you got married you

Kathryn Ladley:

couldn't work.

Kathryn Ladley:

That's right.

Kathryn Ladley:

Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

Well, at the time we got married, I, well, when I first started

Kathryn Ladley:

at college, I couldn't open a bank account to pay my, grant.

Kathryn Ladley:

My, you know, Maintenance granting without my dad signing the forms for

Kathryn Ladley:

me, I couldn't have a credit card without a man signing the forms.

Kathryn Ladley:

And when Ian and I, were buying our first house, the solicitor nearly

Kathryn Ladley:

fell off his chair when Ian said, I want it to be in joint names.

Kathryn Ladley:

Oh, that's most unusual, sir.

Kathryn Ladley:

We don't do things like that, you know, and so, well, that's what we want.

Kathryn Ladley:

But, you know, these things change fortunately, but it's

Kathryn Ladley:

taken a long time marrying them.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I don't think for all that much further

Marion Ellis:

forward in many things.

Marion Ellis:

No, and I'm, and I'm studying at me stand in desk cuz I do, when I do my podcast

Marion Ellis:

and I've got my hands crossed because on the one hand it is really infuriating

Marion Ellis:

that actually those kind of things happen and, but they're in our lifetime.

Marion Ellis:

And I often hear when it comes to women, gender and, you know, all of

Marion Ellis:

those different things that, need to change in terms of diversity.

Marion Ellis:

We've gotta draw the line.

Marion Ellis:

We've gotta draw the line and start, you know, afresh and the world's moved on.

Marion Ellis:

But I think it's really hard to do because still in our lifetime

Marion Ellis:

we can remember these things.

Marion Ellis:

and other people have those old-fashioned views.

Marion Ellis:

And also if we don't remember the fact that you couldn't have a bank

Marion Ellis:

account, without your dad signing it or a man, then we forget how

Marion Ellis:

easily some things can change.

Marion Ellis:

You know, if you look at the laws and Roe v Wade and all of those things in, in,

Marion Ellis:

you know, that happening in America so easily, those things can happen over here.

Marion Ellis:

And, you know, yes, we need to draw a line to a degree and move forward,

Marion Ellis:

but we can't cancel the past.

Marion Ellis:

No.

Marion Ellis:

We've gotta have a, an understanding and I think almost a respect.

Marion Ellis:

For those who have gone before as championed different initiatives and you

Marion Ellis:

know, in whatever way it is, you know, that we don't forget and we, but we learn

Marion Ellis:

and we do better and we continue to do better in whatever way that is, for me, in

Marion Ellis:

terms of, you know, when I really started to notice female surveyors, you know, I'd

Marion Ellis:

had a few sort of tricky times at work.

Marion Ellis:

And I remember going to, some lunch events that had been erased and there

Marion Ellis:

were eight female surveyors and we all sat around this big, big table in a booth.

Marion Ellis:

and that was highly unusual for me to see those people.

Marion Ellis:

All good, all of them good friend friends now, but outta eight of them,

Marion Ellis:

half of them had signed an N D A for sex discrimination in some kind of way.

Marion Ellis:

And when I was going through challenges, I did think.

Marion Ellis:

I couldn't do it because that just burs a problem and it

Marion Ellis:

just, we just forget, you know.

Marion Ellis:

But in that group, there was everybody from those starting

Marion Ellis:

out to those longer in the tooth.

Marion Ellis:

And it was almost like in front of me, every stage of a life,

Marion Ellis:

stage of a woman, female surveyor.

Marion Ellis:

And it just gave me this huge perspective of you, you know, that

Marion Ellis:

we, I don't know, just what we all bring to it and how things change.

Marion Ellis:

You know, you got your young naive, yes, it's all gonna be

Marion Ellis:

okay and I'm gonna come back after having babies and it'll be fine.

Marion Ellis:

And then you had the mom who was not fine and I was a second child.

Marion Ellis:

catastrophe at the time.

Marion Ellis:

You had things like menopause, being, causing challenges, disabilities.

Marion Ellis:

And then ageism, you know, I'm not dead yet.

Marion Ellis:

at the other end of the Yeah, the table.

Marion Ellis:

Yep.

Marion Ellis:

You know, we've all got something to contribute.

Marion Ellis:

And at the R I C S last year, they did, an event at International Women's

Marion Ellis:

Day, and there was a, some stats that they shared and what, and it was that

Marion Ellis:

the average length of membership for a man at the R I C S was 29 years.

Marion Ellis:

And for women it was 16.

Marion Ellis:

. Do you think, why is that?

Marion Ellis:

Are we all dropping off earlier or are we all starting later?

Marion Ellis:

I know particularly in residential, a lot of us coming to it, you know, later

Marion Ellis:

in life as a profession, but clearly there's a disparity in those are the

Marion Ellis:

kind of things that we need to change.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

and you say things, how do you say things haven't necessarily moved on.

Marion Ellis:

I mean, how do you view the demographics or of women in the profession?

Marion Ellis:

And, you know, I know you do a lot of work, you know, when I look

Marion Ellis:

at your career and all the things that you've done, how do you.

Marion Ellis:

do you think that, do you think things haven't changed or the

Marion Ellis:

cs, are there particular things that we need to focus on?

Kathryn Ladley:

Well, I think there, there are obviously more women coming into

Kathryn Ladley:

the profession now, say, when I started I was one outta a class of 25 boys.

Kathryn Ladley:

And, you know, it, it certainly is better than that if you speak to the academics.

Kathryn Ladley:

but we're still only up at about 13 or 14%

Marion Ellis:

in the, well, I think it, I think this is

Marion Ellis:

something our ICS are, refining.

Marion Ellis:

I think they, it's something up to like 18%, but it's the, for me, it's the who's

Marion Ellis:

qualified and how long are they staying.

Marion Ellis:

And of those who have fellowship, I think there's only 4% who are

Marion Ellis:

women, which is a tiny yeah.

Marion Ellis:

Amount of women

Marion Ellis:

, Kathryn Ladley: you know.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

I mean, I've always been proud of being a chartered surveyor.

Marion Ellis:

I think at times, particularly in the early days, I didn't get much support.

Marion Ellis:

from the R I C S.

Marion Ellis:

you know, I think in some res respects, women were a bit of an embarrassment.

Marion Ellis:

They didn't know quite what to do with us.

Marion Ellis:

and it is getting better, you know, it's good from that point of view.

Marion Ellis:

but, you know, I'm still in the position where my current line

Marion Ellis:

manager is a chartered surveyor, not a chartered quantas surveyor

Marion Ellis:

on the more on the estate side.

Marion Ellis:

But that's the first time I've ever worked with a female

Marion Ellis:

chartered surveyor of any sort.

Marion Ellis:

You know, I've never managed one or, being managed by until this time.

Marion Ellis:

And as I say, it's a different branch of the Rs Cs and it

Marion Ellis:

can be quite lonely at times.

Marion Ellis:

You know, who do you ask these questions of?

Marion Ellis:

And I, you know, I think they.

Marion Ellis:

The campaign that's been going on recently about period products and

Marion Ellis:

making things easier for women.

Marion Ellis:

When they, that is absolutely

Marion Ellis:

brilliant.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

So that's, I'll put a link into the show notes, but that's a campaign

Marion Ellis:

to make sure that sanitary products are available in all toilets, on, on

Marion Ellis:

building sites and things like that.

Kathryn Ladley:

And you know, and it's, that's been a long time coming, hasn't it?

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, it's, but you know, having said that, you still see, bits on the,

Kathryn Ladley:

on the internet where women, yeah, they have their own toilets, but it's also

Kathryn Ladley:

the place where they start the toilet rules and you can hardly get into it

Kathryn Ladley:

and you have to walk past the en your rhino to get there as well, you know,

Kathryn Ladley:

and you think, you know, surely , I mean, when I was young and on site a

Kathryn Ladley:

lot, you just didn't go to the low.

Kathryn Ladley:

You wait, you get home.

Kathryn Ladley:

She likes till you got home.

Kathryn Ladley:

Soft thing.

Kathryn Ladley:

. Marion Ellis: Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

So totally get it.

Kathryn Ladley:

Same with re surveyors.

Kathryn Ladley:

I think most re surveyors, you don't go in someone's house, you wait till you

Kathryn Ladley:

get home and that ain't a good thing to hold your bladder in that, in that long.

Kathryn Ladley:

it's, a and it's, I think the conversations are on different levels,

Kathryn Ladley:

you know, so there'll be conversations about imposter syndrome and how to get

Kathryn Ladley:

ahead and careers and all of those things.

Kathryn Ladley:

But I think there also needs to be a place where we can talk about when

Kathryn Ladley:

you're feeling a bit shitty and stuff's going on at home and you know, you are

Kathryn Ladley:

feeling uncomfortable at work and we are hormonal beings as women, which

Kathryn Ladley:

makes us a bit awkward sometimes.

Kathryn Ladley:

but most of us just wanna feel welcome.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, it's an example of the toilet.

Kathryn Ladley:

. You just have to think, I want everybody to feel welcome.

Kathryn Ladley:

What would make you feel welcome and valued in this business?

Kathryn Ladley:

Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, and it's spaces where you are.

Kathryn Ladley:

You can go for a pee in peace.

Kathryn Ladley:

And another thought that comes to mind.

Kathryn Ladley:

I remember, organizing a little get together up in the northeast a couple

Kathryn Ladley:

of years ago, and there was a Lady Qs, who I hadn't met before who came

Kathryn Ladley:

and, I remember, but she came over.

Kathryn Ladley:

I remember saying to her, oh, I love your dress.

Kathryn Ladley:

And she had this fabulous, she'll be listening to this and embarrassed, but,

Kathryn Ladley:

this fabulous like, rap type dress.

Kathryn Ladley:

And it really suited her.

Kathryn Ladley:

And it's one of those things that women say to each other, oh, I love your dress.

Kathryn Ladley:

That's really nice.

Kathryn Ladley:

And she was just overcome because she works with men.

Kathryn Ladley:

She loves working with men.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, she's done a lot for, you know, families, parents within

Kathryn Ladley:

her business and organization.

Kathryn Ladley:

, but men can't really say, oh, I like your dress.

Kathryn Ladley:

No.

Kathryn Ladley:

Without being taken the wrong way.

Kathryn Ladley:

And she was, it was just reflected on it that it's little things like that

Kathryn Ladley:

as women where we connect and notice, you know, that she wasn't getting those

Kathryn Ladley:

compliments and she got, oh, overcome.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I've thought, oh my god, , you know, it's, it's the

Kathryn Ladley:

little things like that, isn't

Kathryn Ladley:

it?

Kathryn Ladley:

Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

It's strange the way things change.

Kathryn Ladley:

You as well, because I'd, my, my first child was born in 1983, so I'd been

Kathryn Ladley:

in the industry from 1970, if you include the time I was at college.

Kathryn Ladley:

And because I felt such an outsider, you know, you sort of develop

Kathryn Ladley:

your conversation so you can talk to the men and you learn a bit.

Kathryn Ladley:

Different aspects so I could hold my own with football and cars and, you know,

Kathryn Ladley:

all the other things that were going on.

Kathryn Ladley:

And when Daniel was born and I started going to mums and toddlers,

Kathryn Ladley:

I didn't know how to talk to the other mums because I Oh, yes.

Kathryn Ladley:

Had lost all the things that they were talking about.

Kathryn Ladley:

And when I eventually went back to work, I thought, oh, to hell with this.

Kathryn Ladley:

I'm me.

Kathryn Ladley:

They accept what I want to talk about, and if they don't want to do that, don't talk

Marion Ellis:

to me sort of thing.

Marion Ellis:

Oh, that, that's, that totally resonates.

Marion Ellis:

I felt I had very little in common with the other mums.

Marion Ellis:

my eldest is 13 now, and at the time I was one of the few working moms in the year,

Marion Ellis:

you know, school, year group or whatever.

Marion Ellis:

and I found that really hard and when I first started, Networking.

Marion Ellis:

I hate that term, networking, but when I first started and I couldn't talk about

Marion Ellis:

football sport without making an idiot of myself, and I did that a few times.

Marion Ellis:

I'm working in residential.

Marion Ellis:

What I found was talking about your first home.

Marion Ellis:

Do you remember the first home that you bought?

Marion Ellis:

Most people have got a story or a disaster story or a fun story about not being

Marion Ellis:

able to get the sofa in or whatever.

Marion Ellis:

and that was sort of a bit of an icebreaker, yeah, for me.

Marion Ellis:

But I did develop a, you know, three questions that I would always

Marion Ellis:

ask if I'd walked into a room and I was stuck, you know, but it

Marion Ellis:

became a bit of an interrogation.

Marion Ellis:

Tell me this, tell me this, tell me this, like, to refine my style over the years.

Marion Ellis:

but you know, the more that we can show up and just say,

Marion Ellis:

actually I don't know anyone.

Marion Ellis:

You know, nice to meet you and yeah.

Marion Ellis:

we're more accepting of it perhaps now tho those conversations.

Marion Ellis:

But, even I remember 20 years ago, it wasn't that, yeah.

Marion Ellis:

easy.

Marion Ellis:

And so, so you qualified, and then tell me about your sort of early

Marion Ellis:

stages of your career then, and the kind of work that you did.

Marion Ellis:

Projects.

Kathryn Ladley:

Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

Well, I worked for Lead City council and, you know, I always say lead

Kathryn Ladley:

city council really good to me because of their career grade.

Kathryn Ladley:

They had, you know, I was relatively well paid through my final year

Kathryn Ladley:

at college and everything else.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I had to go back for them to them for two years after I became chartered.

Kathryn Ladley:

So I became chartered in 1975 and stayed.

Kathryn Ladley:

I actually stayed with the council till 1978 and it was a fabulous place to

Kathryn Ladley:

work because leads is a city full of.

Kathryn Ladley:

Heritage buildings.

Kathryn Ladley:

And at that time it, it did a lot of housing.

Kathryn Ladley:

It was doing a lot of schools, fire stations, you know, you name it.

Kathryn Ladley:

There was such a variety working on things like Lotton Hall and Temple News.

Kathryn Ladley:

And it was great.

Kathryn Ladley:

I couldn't have wished for better experience, really.

Kathryn Ladley:

and I know when I went back to college after my year out, the lads were

Kathryn Ladley:

saying, well, what have you been doing?

Kathryn Ladley:

I said, well, this, and this didn't do much other than photocopy,

Kathryn Ladley:

you know, , that sort of thing.

Kathryn Ladley:

And, you know, I feel I was really lucky that I went there by chance, really.

Kathryn Ladley:

but thoroughly enjoyed it.

Kathryn Ladley:

And it set the tone of my career after that.

Kathryn Ladley:

And, I always say, you know, if you brought me in half, I'd have local

Kathryn Ladley:

authority written inside me like a stick of rock, because I don't

Kathryn Ladley:

like working in the public sector.

Kathryn Ladley:

I like the, you know, the type of buildings you provide for people,

Kathryn Ladley:

even the housing, you know, you knew you were giving better standards of

Kathryn Ladley:

life to, to the people of lead so that it was, it suited me sort of thing.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I have had spells, in private practice and working for contractors,

Kathryn Ladley:

but, always enjoy, public sector work.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I work for NPSs now, which, is wholly owned by Norfolk County Council.

Kathryn Ladley:

So we, we have, a partnership with Lake City Council.

Kathryn Ladley:

So I'm still involved in the same type of work, although the shift, you know,

Kathryn Ladley:

not quite so much housing as there used to be and you know, different areas.

Kathryn Ladley:

But yeah, totally enjoy.

Marion Ellis:

I think I hear a lot, you know, we've had it on the podcast before.

Marion Ellis:

I hear it in the.

Marion Ellis:

Survey they have community working for local authorities.

Marion Ellis:

You can get a really good grounding of, you know, and variety

Marion Ellis:

and different, kind of work.

Marion Ellis:

And I'd really encourage, I never, I did it, but I'd really encourage people

Marion Ellis:

to explore that as, as an option.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

and just hearing you talk about, you know, the projects and

Marion Ellis:

things that you get involved in.

Marion Ellis:

You know, it makes me think of actually about do women make good surveyors?

Marion Ellis:

And we can look at it as a, on a technical point of view, of course, you

Marion Ellis:

know, we can, there's no difference.

Marion Ellis:

You know, we can, of course we can do it, but we always often think about women

Marion Ellis:

being very nurturing and being homemakers.

Marion Ellis:

And I always think well go out nine inches of brick and you're actually

Marion Ellis:

physically making a home, not just, you know, in, inside the home.

Marion Ellis:

and caring about the way that people live, not just in our

Marion Ellis:

homes, but our communities.

Marion Ellis:

You know, the way we get to and from work, the amenities that we have.

Marion Ellis:

you know, understanding how people live is really insightful.

Marion Ellis:

It's not just about the construction side, the maths, the, you know,

Marion Ellis:

measurements and valuations.

Marion Ellis:

Whatever it is we do, it is very much about, about people.

Marion Ellis:

and how they live and how these things are, you know, that

Marion Ellis:

we developer, are gonna work.

Kathryn Ladley:

Yeah, I think you do look at the buildings you're involved

Kathryn Ladley:

in and see that role and, you know, and how things work and traps don't work

Kathryn Ladley:

and in some instances, but it, I think it's also you can't change yourself.

Kathryn Ladley:

You can't suddenly just because you do a man's job, which was what, you

Kathryn Ladley:

know, the way it was always put in the early days, or you are doing a

Kathryn Ladley:

man's job, you don't become a man.

Kathryn Ladley:

, you know, you still have your identity and you still regard the way things

Kathryn Ladley:

happen and the way you feel towards other people, you know, as part of your life.

Kathryn Ladley:

And if I can just digress a little bit, my, my son's in academia.

Kathryn Ladley:

he's dean of the business school, that's one of the universities in the Midlands.

Kathryn Ladley:

And he did some research about female hormones and the effects

Kathryn Ladley:

they have on decision making.

Kathryn Ladley:

And to Lan story short, the results sort of proved that because of

Kathryn Ladley:

the way women are, they don't take the same sort of risks that men

Kathryn Ladley:

take in making their decisions.

Kathryn Ladley:

And had there been more women in finance.

Kathryn Ladley:

the crash probably wouldn't have happened.

Kathryn Ladley:

And if you extend that to have there been more women working at a high

Kathryn Ladley:

level in Carilion, would they have taken the risks they were taking, you

Kathryn Ladley:

know, or would it have been, would that company still have been there?

Kathryn Ladley:

A different sort of company.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I think that works its way through, you know, right down to

Kathryn Ladley:

the lower levels of employees that they look at things differently.

Marion Ellis:

And I think there's, yeah, I think they, that's really insightful.

Marion Ellis:

And I think there's, there's two things there.

Marion Ellis:

One is just embrace who you are.

Marion Ellis:

It's o it's okay to be a woman, you know, and to be feminine if

Marion Ellis:

that's how you are very often.

Marion Ellis:

Women do develop a mask that they wear to, to fit in.

Marion Ellis:

you know, so the more personal development you can do to understand

Marion Ellis:

yourself better and to be okay with that is really, really important.

Marion Ellis:

you

Kathryn Ladley:

do resilience.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

You do.

Marion Ellis:

it's not, it's not easy.

Marion Ellis:

but the other thing is the whole sort of question then and point about, you know,

Marion Ellis:

there, there being diversity at the table, at the decision making at every level.

Marion Ellis:

And it's that cognitive diversity, not just color, skin, gender or whatever.

Marion Ellis:

It's that diversity of thinking and experiences, not just everyone from a

Marion Ellis:

corporate include SMEs and, you know, I almost think about, you know, some of

Marion Ellis:

these working groups and committees that you see, why is it always the oldest

Marion Ellis:

more experienced senior people there?

Marion Ellis:

Why can't we have graduates and students.

Marion Ellis:

You'll have some fresh thinking and different perspectives to, to bring.

Marion Ellis:

And it's really hard to curate that.

Marion Ellis:

But you've gotta have that, that across the board.

Marion Ellis:

And when you look at things like that, you're right.

Marion Ellis:

You know, there are examples where it's, where you can

Marion Ellis:

see things, things like that.

Marion Ellis:

I think the difference is when you have that diverse thinking, you tend to

Marion Ellis:

put people first, not just the money, the practicalities, the risk you put

Marion Ellis:

, you put people in their lives first.

Marion Ellis:

And, you talk more about feelings, and feelings is something we don't

Marion Ellis:

talk about, you know, how does it feel to be in this room that's tiny.

Marion Ellis:

you know, when you are designing it, how does it feel to follow these rules and

Marion Ellis:

regulations that people don't understand and cut corners anyway, you know?

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

So it's, it's more about sort of being perceptive on that.

Marion Ellis:

and I, it's interesting.

Marion Ellis:

I trained as a, initially I trained as a women's leadership coach.

Marion Ellis:

and the more I talked about being yourself, work life

Marion Ellis:

integration rather than balance.

Marion Ellis:

And, I actually work with more men and there are men who, who get it.

Marion Ellis:

And for some men they work in a really toxic masculine culture where they

Marion Ellis:

can't, they don't want to be seen or can't be seen as, you know, being dads

Marion Ellis:

and being grandparents, you know, and I wanna say, well, I wanna finish early

Marion Ellis:

so I can take my grandkids to the park.

Marion Ellis:

You know?

Marion Ellis:

it's hard for them to, you know, not to bring out this tiny fa violin for the

Marion Ellis:

patriarchy, but it's hard for a lot of men who are in that, in that environment.

Marion Ellis:

But, you know, we're all breaking patterns.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

All the time.

Marion Ellis:

We're breaking patterns and we just need to start and support each other.

Marion Ellis:

and I guess in many ways Covid has been a great level.

Marion Ellis:

, you know, because yeah, a lot of them have had to , you know, we've all had to parent

Marion Ellis:

from home in, in lots of different ways.

Marion Ellis:

But then it's also highlighted differences, hasn't it, with women

Marion Ellis:

and being, not being able to work.

Marion Ellis:

you know, and all the different, different levels there, of

Marion Ellis:

things that, that happened.

Marion Ellis:

yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And so, yeah, I, I mean, I think it's a fabulous career for women,

Marion Ellis:

but you make it what you are.

Marion Ellis:

You mentioned, that you don't do much practicing of q of Qs, quantity

Marion Ellis:

surveying at the moment, but the moment as you've gone on your career, and

Marion Ellis:

that's something that I've noticed.

Marion Ellis:

I'm, I love surveying, but I don't practice in the traditional sense anymore.

Marion Ellis:

but I'm still a surveyor.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And when I went for my fellowship, that was really the journey

Marion Ellis:

of am I a surveyor anymore?

Marion Ellis:

, you know, when I look at my career and what I've done and what I've

Marion Ellis:

achieved, , we are all surveyors.

Marion Ellis:

We just do it in lots of different ways, in ways that we contribute.

Marion Ellis:

and that's part of evolving, isn't it, in our career?

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

Well, I'll always bring my surveying training and background

Kathryn Ladley:

and knowledge into things, but it's not actually going out on site and

Kathryn Ladley:

as you say, shimming or ladders and, measuring roofing and things like that.

Kathryn Ladley:

you know, I'm quite glad that my days of remeasuring drainage on site

Kathryn Ladley:

have finished . There wasn't much joy in lifting manholes and, sticking

Kathryn Ladley:

a rub down to see how deep it was.

Kathryn Ladley:

So,

Marion Ellis:

you know, you say that it's really funny.

Marion Ellis:

I did, I occasionally do some TikTok videos just to, let

Marion Ellis:

off some, tension and release.

Marion Ellis:

And I did one and it was like to music and it just said, you know, hackers have.

Marion Ellis:

taking your, you know, taking your photos from your phone.

Marion Ellis:

We want 10,000 pound back.

Marion Ellis:

And then there was like a sequence of pictures that were basically buildings,

Marion Ellis:

you know, and really rubbish pictures.

Marion Ellis:

And I shared it and all these surveyors said, yeah, I've got all these

Marion Ellis:

pictures of drains of my open manhole,

Marion Ellis:

He was like, oh, you know, you're survey wen . Yeah, you've got, got that stuff.

Marion Ellis:

But sorry, just reminded you

Kathryn Ladley:

interrupt.

Kathryn Ladley:

I mean, the, I suppose when you get to my stage in your career, you've, you

Kathryn Ladley:

can't help but develop a very broad knowledge of the construction industry.

Kathryn Ladley:

So, at the moment I'm helping my manager with the, professional

Kathryn Ladley:

indemnity insurance renewal, you know, because that brings all the different

Kathryn Ladley:

disciplines together within the company.

Kathryn Ladley:

I'm also helping them roll out, a one company.

Kathryn Ladley:

Quality system.

Kathryn Ladley:

NAS, the NAS group I work for has lots of different individual companies and we've

Kathryn Ladley:

all had our own quality accreditation, but it's all coming together under one system.

Kathryn Ladley:

So I've, you know, I've been spending a bit of time doing that, but we're

Kathryn Ladley:

also looking at processes and, how we can bring a bit more standardization

Kathryn Ladley:

into processes across the group.

Kathryn Ladley:

So, and that all takes, you know, the knowledge of how the industry

Kathryn Ladley:

works and how architects work with surveyors and engineers.

Kathryn Ladley:

And so, yes, I do still work around quantity , but not in the

Kathryn Ladley:

stuff I was trained to do when I was a junior and first started.

Marion Ellis:

did you get to a point where your identity shifted in the.

Marion Ellis:

A lot of surveyors define themselves as surveyors because

Marion Ellis:

they do the technical stuff.

Marion Ellis:

. And then we, and you know, a lot of us tend to go into training or we go into

Marion Ellis:

different, you know, sort of side roles if you like, advisory roles or whatever.

Marion Ellis:

Did you ever have that, that maybe I'm not the same kind of surveyor I used to be.

Kathryn Ladley:

Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

I did.

Kathryn Ladley:

it was sort of 20, 20 years ago perhaps where, I was back working

Kathryn Ladley:

for leads, having had my children and I'd gone back part-time.

Kathryn Ladley:

And the, the man I worked for, he was asked to set up

Kathryn Ladley:

a, an intelligent client unit.

Kathryn Ladley:

There was a lot of talk about intelligent clients at that time, and

Marion Ellis:

I was asked to join what's an intelligent client.

Marion Ellis:

it's, we'd all like one of them.

Marion Ellis:

. Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

It's a recognition I suppose that, Most people who

Kathryn Ladley:

commission buildings don't really know about the construction process.

Kathryn Ladley:

So the intelligent client unit, it is a group that sit between, you

Kathryn Ladley:

know, maybe an architect or even a building contractor on a smaller scale.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, if you're thinking, of yourself commissioning a new house, you know?

Kathryn Ladley:

Yeah, fine.

Kathryn Ladley:

Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

That element of knowledge of the construction, construction industry, but

Kathryn Ladley:

a lot of people don't have that knowledge.

Kathryn Ladley:

And it's a sort of go between that knows the right questions to ask that

Kathryn Ladley:

knows how to put the contract together so that they, the client is, yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

So he was asked to set up this intelligent client unit within lead city council and

Kathryn Ladley:

asked me if I wanted to be part of that.

Kathryn Ladley:

And at that point I stopped being a surveyor I'd been working.

Kathryn Ladley:

For him on the final account for the magistrate's courts in leads, which

Kathryn Ladley:

was sort of new builds in the eighties.

Kathryn Ladley:

and at that point I stopped doing that and became one of these go-betweens,

Kathryn Ladley:

which needed all the knowledge I had of the construction industry.

Kathryn Ladley:

I couldn't have done it without it.

Kathryn Ladley:

Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

But shifted in a slightly different direction.

Kathryn Ladley:

and I suppose I do still do the odd sort of estimate, you know,

Kathryn Ladley:

a bit like sticky finger Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

Sort of thing.

Kathryn Ladley:

So I, and that's because I have that background knowledge.

Kathryn Ladley:

but it's not like,

Marion Ellis:

yeah, it's like you can't do it without that experience.

Marion Ellis:

But then you get to that point and sometimes there's a bit of judgment

Marion Ellis:

over, are you a surveyor or not.

Marion Ellis:

. And then there's things like, you know, if you're not practicing, You can't be

Marion Ellis:

regulated in the same way with our ics and then starts to get those divides.

Marion Ellis:

But, what's a surveyor?

Marion Ellis:

Always a surveyor and always having your camera full of pictures

Marion Ellis:

of random, random things.

Marion Ellis:

My

Kathryn Ladley:

camera full of mad daughter's dog at the moment.

Kathryn Ladley:

she gots to German Shepherd dog about

Marion Ellis:

a year ago and she got, oh, we do love an animal picture.

Marion Ellis:

. That's what you, that's what gets the most likes on LinkedIn.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

I've

Kathryn Ladley:

got more, more photographs of my daughter's

Kathryn Ladley:

dog than my grandchildren.

Marion Ellis:

so maybe that needs to be a sign of, are you a survey or not?

Marion Ellis:

Is how much junk property junk you've got on your on your phone.

Marion Ellis:

You have to submit that to our ics.

Marion Ellis:

Um, uh, as you've gone on in your career, you mentioned, you

Marion Ellis:

know, you, you qualified in 75.

Marion Ellis:

Afraid to say, I was born in 75.

Marion Ellis:

and.

Marion Ellis:

, you know, so you are 70, 71, I think you said.

Marion Ellis:

how do you feel about the tail end of your, your career?

Marion Ellis:

Because as surveyors, we've often talked about it being an aging profession.

Marion Ellis:

which is a, I don't think it's a very nice term, but everyone's getting a bit older.

Marion Ellis:

how is, you know, you mentioned you some of the challenges early on

Marion Ellis:

and things that you've experienced.

Marion Ellis:

How has it been the towards this sort of last leg?

Marion Ellis:

That sounds awful.

Marion Ellis:

Dunno how can I'm not sure how to say it without saying, Katherine, you're

Marion Ellis:

getting old and you're gonna retire soon, but, you know what I mean?

Marion Ellis:

how'd you deal with it when you get to that end?

Marion Ellis:

Well,

Kathryn Ladley:

I tell everybody, I'm getting old.

Kathryn Ladley:

I've never been one to say no.

Kathryn Ladley:

I'm not telling you how old I am.

Kathryn Ladley:

It's, I'm there.

Kathryn Ladley:

I'm out.

Kathryn Ladley:

And Alton and happy for people to know, Yes, I'll readily admit I

Kathryn Ladley:

can't go shinning up ladders anymore.

Kathryn Ladley:

but I still feel I've got a lot to give in terms of, you know, 50 years

Kathryn Ladley:

of knowledge that I've built up and that experience and, you know, knowing

Kathryn Ladley:

how to do things and where to go if I haven't got that information.

Kathryn Ladley:

When I first started at college, the first lecturer I was ever in, the lecturer

Kathryn Ladley:

said, we're not here to teach you facts.

Kathryn Ladley:

We're here to teach you where to find those facts.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I think that is such a good point that you know, if you know where to look

Kathryn Ladley:

to find something, it doesn't matter that you don't know it at that time.

Kathryn Ladley:

And you know, I don't think it's sad that some people expect that

Kathryn Ladley:

you should just have all the answers at the tips of your fingers.

Kathryn Ladley:

It's, yeah, no, I can find out.

Kathryn Ladley:

I know what to do.

Kathryn Ladley:

I

Marion Ellis:

know how to look.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

I think that's so, so important.

Marion Ellis:

and I always liken it too, there used to be a program on in the eighties or

Marion Ellis:

nineties called, you Bet Can't remember if it was a brucey one that he presented

Marion Ellis:

But you had people come on and the, they had three celebrities and they would bet,

Marion Ellis:

could this person remember or identify 200 different types of car tail lights, you

Marion Ellis:

know, are there all these people with like geeky facts and things that they could do?

Marion Ellis:

And you'd bet and you know, does every surveyor know all

Marion Ellis:

of the building regulations?

Marion Ellis:

You know, every single piece of the R I c s Red Book?

Marion Ellis:

No, we don.

Marion Ellis:

and your brain isn't there to hold all of those things.

Marion Ellis:

It's a processor.

Marion Ellis:

And so knowing where to go for that information, which changes

Marion Ellis:

all the time, is the key.

Marion Ellis:

But being able to confidently say, I know where to go.

Marion Ellis:

I know this has changed.

Marion Ellis:

I know where to go.

Marion Ellis:

I'm gonna find out.

Marion Ellis:

And I think that's really one of the best advice that we can give to anyone going

Marion Ellis:

through their APC or early on in their career, because so many people worry

Marion Ellis:

about being an expert, you know, but you're an expert in the field that you

Marion Ellis:

work in, not in a encyclopedia knowledge.

Marion Ellis:

I think it's

Kathryn Ladley:

quite hard the first time you look at someone and have to say, I

Kathryn Ladley:

don't know the answer to that, but I can find it out and get back to you within

Kathryn Ladley:

an hour or something like that, you know?

Kathryn Ladley:

Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

And once you've done that, you realize that you don't have to

Kathryn Ladley:

know everything about everyone and everything that's going on.

Kathryn Ladley:

And it's quite empowering,

Marion Ellis:

really.

Marion Ellis:

And some, and sometimes you can ask people, to say, what do you think?

Marion Ellis:

What do you know?

Marion Ellis:

Most people ha have the answer.

Marion Ellis:

have a, you know, a kinda direction.

Marion Ellis:

What about, I mean, obviously in those, you know, nearly 50 years that you've

Marion Ellis:

been a surveyor, lots of things have changed and you know, we often think

Marion Ellis:

those who are in charge, they get the job because they've been there the longest.

Marion Ellis:

But at some point, I guess the younger people get promoted above you.

Marion Ellis:

and sometimes we're okay with that.

Marion Ellis:

and sometimes we're not on, on skill level.

Marion Ellis:

and things change, you know, like, You know, I remember going out

Marion Ellis:

when the first tablet technology came out, 15 plus years ago.

Marion Ellis:

And I had to, cause I'd seen a colored computer screen.

Marion Ellis:

I had to go out and train some of the surveyors on how to use these tablets.

Marion Ellis:

And some of them had literally never used anything like that at all.

Marion Ellis:

and I learned that I was a really good surveyor cuz some

Marion Ellis:

of them were awful , you know?

Marion Ellis:

and we get into that.

Marion Ellis:

So then reverse mentoring side, you know, of, there's a point where you think,

Marion Ellis:

oh, everything that I've known for the last however many years has changed.

Marion Ellis:

And here's somebody new with new thinking.

Marion Ellis:

You know, we've gotta be, as we go through our careers, we've gotta be open

Marion Ellis:

to that, that we don't know everything.

Marion Ellis:

And guess what?

Marion Ellis:

It might change.

Marion Ellis:

Well,

Kathryn Ladley:

I will say that I find it difficult.

Kathryn Ladley:

I still don't.

Kathryn Ladley:

, you know, this is coming from a background where when I started out,

Kathryn Ladley:

we didn't even have pocket calculators.

Kathryn Ladley:

you know, everything was done with a slide rule when I was at, college.

Kathryn Ladley:

And people says that's one of those never heard of one , you know?

Kathryn Ladley:

and I think at the moment, change happens so fast that I do struggle

Kathryn Ladley:

from an IT point of view, but once it's explained, you know, someone

Kathryn Ladley:

will take the time to explain it, then I'm absolutely fine and move on.

Kathryn Ladley:

And there's no problem.

Kathryn Ladley:

But, yeah, I think times changed, don't they?

Kathryn Ladley:

You've got to move with those changes are, I suppose I would've

Kathryn Ladley:

stopped working 20 years ago.

Kathryn Ladley:

It's, I guess

Marion Ellis:

it's the approach that people take or businesses take to people

Marion Ellis:

who might struggle with the concept of it.

Marion Ellis:

, you know, like I remember with the new tablets that came out, I

Marion Ellis:

remember when we went on email, remember we got mobile phones.

Marion Ellis:

. And you know, I say that laughing because I remember my mom talking about, well,

Marion Ellis:

I remember when we didn't do this and didn't do that, and I it catches us

Marion Ellis:

all up anybody who's a bit younger.

Marion Ellis:

but it all depends on the, I think, compassion and patience that a

Marion Ellis:

company has with somebody to help the support them, you know, going forward.

Marion Ellis:

I mean, a great example or not is our RICS going digital and

Marion Ellis:

stopping all the magazines.

Marion Ellis:

, you know, on the one hand there's the, well, it's printing paper,

Marion Ellis:

it's ethical recycling and costs and all of those things.

Marion Ellis:

On the other hand, not everybody can get on the right website at the right

Marion Ellis:

page and click the right link to find the information that they need.

Marion Ellis:

And so you've gotta either support people to get there or really think

Marion Ellis:

about the individuals and what they need.

Marion Ellis:

You know?

Kathryn Ladley:

Well, I've been charted long enough to know.

Kathryn Ladley:

It's gone through phases.

Kathryn Ladley:

Marion, we, you start off at one point where you get the Chartered

Kathryn Ladley:

Surveyor magazine, that's about everything, all the different branches

Kathryn Ladley:

and you literally just flick through and find a bit that's relevant.

Kathryn Ladley:

And then we went through a phase where there was a chartered quantity

Kathryn Ladley:

Surveyor magazine and that was great.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, it was problems of how do you measure, sounds pretty

Kathryn Ladley:

mundane, but how do you measure under rule this, that and the other?

Kathryn Ladley:

And you got lots of practical tips and advice and things like that.

Kathryn Ladley:

Oh, there'd be an article on cost planning and all those sorts of things.

Kathryn Ladley:

And then it went back to being the sort of combined one and usually there,

Kathryn Ladley:

there might be one article to deal with quantity surveiling in it, and then you

Kathryn Ladley:

turn to the obituaries and things like that to see if anybody you knew had died.

Kathryn Ladley:

yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

And then, you know, it's obviously progressed and if I'm absolutely honest,

Kathryn Ladley:

. I don't think I'll look at it now.

Kathryn Ladley:

No, I don't think I've got trouble opening in it because I spend enough time

Kathryn Ladley:

staring at the screen for work without sitting and having to read the magazine.

Marion Ellis:

And it's a different way of reading, isn't it?

Marion Ellis:

You know, the blue light on the screen and all of that.

Marion Ellis:

I was gonna say, I'd usually flick to the back to the jobs.

Marion Ellis:

Everyone will go straight to the jobs and work . I went back the other way.

Marion Ellis:

one of the hard things I think as surveyors is, or surveying

Marion Ellis:

profession, is that some of us call it profession, some call it industry.

Marion Ellis:

, we'll talk about construction industry, but you know, where do surveyors fit in,

Marion Ellis:

fit into that, but it's multidisciplinary.

Marion Ellis:

there are so many surveyors doing so many different things.

Marion Ellis:

, it then becomes difficult to, well, how do you effectively connect with

Marion Ellis:

the qss, the resi, the auctioneers, the mining, the whatever it is, in a

Marion Ellis:

meaningful way, and give them content and things that they need or want.

Marion Ellis:

But then also finding ways to not tie us all together, but for us to

Marion Ellis:

recognize that we're all in the, we're here for the public advantage in terms

Marion Ellis:

of the built environment, you know, and helping and supporting people

Marion Ellis:

and all the things that we, we do.

Marion Ellis:

So it's a really tricky thing to, to communicate.

Marion Ellis:

And I, and ultimately everybody just wants to belong.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah, we want to belong.

Marion Ellis:

We want to feel that sense of identity, proud of the work

Marion Ellis:

we do and make a difference.

Marion Ellis:

And then on the other hand, you've got, you know, with our I c s and, you know,

Marion Ellis:

it's the same for other bodies, rules, regulations, the way that things are done.

Marion Ellis:

And it's almost hard to be.

Marion Ellis:

You know, the regulator and a friend at the same time.

Marion Ellis:

And I think that's always perhaps been our I C S's challenge.

Marion Ellis:

Now what happens in the future?

Marion Ellis:

I don't know.

Marion Ellis:

But I do think lots of us can do lots of things.

Marion Ellis:

You know, if I can have a podcast and a Facebook group and various things,

Marion Ellis:

other people can, you know, there's a lot that we can do rather than just

Marion Ellis:

looking to one body or organization to do everything for all of us.

Marion Ellis:

well,

Kathryn Ladley:

that's why I don't particularly relate

Kathryn Ladley:

to the R I C S magazine

Marion Ellis:

have you ever been involved with the R I C S on a regional board

Marion Ellis:

or anything like that over the years?

Kathryn Ladley:

no, not really.

Kathryn Ladley:

I.

Kathryn Ladley:

I dunno how to say this.

Kathryn Ladley:

Really

Marion Ellis:

don't say it

Marion Ellis:

. Kathryn Ladley: No, I think it got

Marion Ellis:

I first started out, but the r i c s was so dismissive at that time.

Marion Ellis:

you sort of had your heart to it and just think, well, I need the

Marion Ellis:

qualification because that's what gets me the jobs and things like that.

Marion Ellis:

So I, I've sort of carried on at that, at that sort of person.

Marion Ellis:

You know, I suppose I've been disappointed.

Marion Ellis:

sort of a few years ago I won, women in construction, lifetime achievement board,

Marion Ellis:

and I told the R I C S about it, nothing.

Marion Ellis:

No, nothing came back from them at all.

Marion Ellis:

And I thought, I'm just not a part of this organization, you know?

Marion Ellis:

And, I think you, your relationship gets a bit sour in the early days.

Marion Ellis:

It used to, annoy me when I get letters to Mrs.

Marion Ellis:

K Laley, Esquire.

Marion Ellis:

You know, they'd not made that up connection.

Marion Ellis:

That was woman, you know, maybe we ought to think about altering this

Marion Ellis:

. So I've a love hate relationship

Marion Ellis:

with, you know, what I think most people would say that

Marion Ellis:

I think we start off our careers aspirational, we're gonna be part of

Marion Ellis:

a movement and, you know, whether.

Marion Ellis:

The membership organization or the companies and or

Marion Ellis:

universities, I don't know.

Marion Ellis:

But we start off with all these dreams and then there's like a reality

Marion Ellis:

check, somewhere along the way.

Marion Ellis:

And that becomes quite sad.

Marion Ellis:

and I've been through that, you know?

Marion Ellis:

Absolutely.

Marion Ellis:

I had, you know, more recently, I did governing council and I was on

Marion Ellis:

a local regional board for a bit.

Marion Ellis:

But before that I had no, I mean I didn't even go to, when I got, chartered

Marion Ellis:

go to the event to get your little certificate cuz I didn't know anyone

Marion Ellis:

and I hadn't engaged with anyone.

Marion Ellis:

And I look back now and think, oh, that's really, you know,

Marion Ellis:

welcome to the profession.

Marion Ellis:

I think, you know, that was cold.

Marion Ellis:

I was really sad.

Marion Ellis:

But a lot of it I suppose depends on your organization and whether

Marion Ellis:

they're, involved with RICS or not.

Marion Ellis:

And I suppose more on the construction side.

Marion Ellis:

Not everybody is a surveyor.

Marion Ellis:

As I was a valuer.

Marion Ellis:

, all the surveyors were all valuers and all, it had to be in our i c s members.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

So I suppose it fluctuates a, across the board, but it is a trip to find what's

Marion Ellis:

relevant, you know, when and what's not.

Marion Ellis:

and things have changed.

Marion Ellis:

You know, even now, actually, you know, they're talking about

Marion Ellis:

female surveyors, you know, a few years ago they, they weren't.

Marion Ellis:

and, there's different views over women's organizations or women's awards,

Marion Ellis:

you know, and all of those things.

Marion Ellis:

But at least people are doing something to raise awareness.

Marion Ellis:

However, it, however it tumbles out, at least people are doing something.

Marion Ellis:

But that's quite, quite an award, that you got.

Kathryn Ladley:

It was, it was surprising.

Kathryn Ladley:

I mean, it was lovely.

Kathryn Ladley:

We had a very nice evening in London for the award.

Kathryn Ladley:

I was one of the founder members of qsi Survey International, and in February I'm

Kathryn Ladley:

going to the house in Lords for a ceremony to give me a lifetime fellowship for.

Marion Ellis:

That's amazing.

Marion Ellis:

So,

Kathryn Ladley:

I'm really looking forward to that.

Kathryn Ladley:

but you know, that's the way my life's gone in many ways because,

Kathryn Ladley:

when my children were young, I was only working part-time, but I was

Kathryn Ladley:

also running a national charity.

Kathryn Ladley:

I miscarried my first pregnancy, and I ended up running the

Kathryn Ladley:

Miscarriage Association for five.

Kathryn Ladley:

Oh wow.

Kathryn Ladley:

A few years.

Kathryn Ladley:

and I was also, I trained as a, an antenatal teacher for

Kathryn Ladley:

the National Chabos Trust.

Kathryn Ladley:

So I've always had.

Kathryn Ladley:

, other things going on.

Kathryn Ladley:

I've been chair of governors at the Village School.

Kathryn Ladley:

I'm not now, but I was that for 13 years.

Kathryn Ladley:

So it wasn't a case of I do my job and I just sit back at the end of the day.

Kathryn Ladley:

Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

That I had plenty going on in my life.

Kathryn Ladley:

And my mo my mother always used to complain.

Kathryn Ladley:

She'd say, you know who, you do too much.

Kathryn Ladley:

you're not as young as you used to be.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know?

Kathryn Ladley:

And, you know, you can't have it all.

Kathryn Ladley:

You can't do it all.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I think my answer was, well, yes you can.

Kathryn Ladley:

If you're prepared to work and you want it badly enough.

Kathryn Ladley:

And that's always been the case.

Kathryn Ladley:

I've wanted to do this job.

Kathryn Ladley:

And, you know, despite all the people at the beginning saying, you can't do this.

Kathryn Ladley:

You're a woman.

Kathryn Ladley:

You won't be able to stand the mud, you won't be able to do this,

Kathryn Ladley:

you won't be able to do that.

Kathryn Ladley:

I wanted it, it was what I really wanted, and that's why I'm still doing it now.

Marion Ellis:

Oh, that, that is just fabulous, Kathryn.

Marion Ellis:

And it just goes to, show I think the way that generations change, you know, of

Marion Ellis:

you can't do that, you're doing too much.

Marion Ellis:

the stories that we're told is children or when we're, you know,

Marion Ellis:

young into our career, that become like limiting beliefs over what's possible

Marion Ellis:

and, you know, can you have it all?

Marion Ellis:

Well, it depends what all is for you.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And also what mot what motivates you.

Marion Ellis:

If there's a sense of purpose to it.

Marion Ellis:

It'll push you through if you know that what you're doing is meaningful work.

Marion Ellis:

And that's a lot of what I talk to surveyors about in my coaching Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

Is you wanna run a business and make loads of money.

Marion Ellis:

You can go and learn to do that anywhere.

Marion Ellis:

But if you wanna do meaningful work that makes a difference, work out your

Marion Ellis:

values and what's important to you.

Marion Ellis:

That's the kind of thing that will really drive you forward.

Marion Ellis:

And lots of surveyors I know do lots of things.

Marion Ellis:

Outside of their day-to-day work, running committees, doing different things.

Marion Ellis:

I did, you know, the N C T group when I was, on my maternity leave and I ran

Marion Ellis:

it cuz there was nobody here for me.

Marion Ellis:

You know, you yeah.

Marion Ellis:

You can create and go and do these things and as a side, I know there's, you know,

Marion Ellis:

quite a few female surveyors who struggle with, with fertility and miscarriage

Marion Ellis:

and they don't have places to go and what, but what I would say is we do have

Marion Ellis:

Lionheart, which is available to, you know, to, to survey, survey members.

Marion Ellis:

but if you think about all of the, all of that experience and even just a

Marion Ellis:

snippet of it to bring in, into a local, regional group or to the surveying

Marion Ellis:

community, you know, those are the kind of things that make a difference.

Marion Ellis:

My, my first board experience was the N C T committee and

Marion Ellis:

there being a school governor.

Marion Ellis:

you know, and that was the only way that I could get that first step.

Marion Ellis:

when I interviewed women, or I had, not just women, but

Marion Ellis:

yeah, people who had their cvs.

Marion Ellis:

When I run a, a complaints department, you know, if they'd

Marion Ellis:

been made redundant, you know, I, what were they doing in that time?

Marion Ellis:

You know, what do they do outside of work?

Marion Ellis:

You know, it's not all about the work you do, it's about

Marion Ellis:

the other interests as well.

Marion Ellis:

And that could be really valuable.

Marion Ellis:

You know, think about mums who were, take some time out, brilliant multi skills

Marion Ellis:

organizers, you know, you're just gonna see past and look, you know, what they

Marion Ellis:

were doing and just look at the skills.

Kathryn Ladley:

One of the things, few things that I've really resented through

Kathryn Ladley:

my career was that when I went back to work, I mean, I worked all through

Kathryn Ladley:

the time that my children were babies.

Kathryn Ladley:

, but part-time, you know, and I worked for a private QS firm and did some,

Kathryn Ladley:

estimating and things like that, and I worked for a building contractor, so

Kathryn Ladley:

I worked all the time, but only two or three days a week, something like that.

Kathryn Ladley:

And when I got to the point where I knew I wanted to go back to work in properly,

Kathryn Ladley:

if you like I gave up the miscarriage association at that time because I knew

Kathryn Ladley:

that my qualifications and my love of building meant more to me than that.

Kathryn Ladley:

But to get a job, I had to go back at least two pay grades, even though

Kathryn Ladley:

I'd been doing it all the time.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, it wasn't the case of all, not worked for 10 years.

Kathryn Ladley:

I'd worked all the way through, but I had to drop down and then start and build my.

Kathryn Ladley:

up again.

Kathryn Ladley:

And, I think that's so hard for women trying to come back into the profession.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know?

Kathryn Ladley:

I think that could just make them decide, no, I've got somewhere else,

Kathryn Ladley:

and do something that's easier.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

I see this a lot actually.

Marion Ellis:

I know there are a few schemes out there, women returners to work, where

Marion Ellis:

different organizations have helped introduce women who had time off.

Marion Ellis:

, you know, or extendedly rather, you know, back into work.

Marion Ellis:

but it is hard, you know, thinking about, cuz you are, you're a

Marion Ellis:

different person when you go back to work after having kids.

Marion Ellis:

Your priorities are different, you know?

Marion Ellis:

And some of us, I mean, with my son, I literally skipped back to work cuz

Marion Ellis:

I couldn't wait with my daughter.

Marion Ellis:

it was a lot harder.

Marion Ellis:

and we've gotta, yeah, ourselves adjust to it.

Marion Ellis:

But also that's where employer support is so important.

Kathryn Ladley:

I mean, I, when I went back to work, I had a lovely boss who was

Kathryn Ladley:

great, and I used to drop the children at school and then drive into lead.

Kathryn Ladley:

So I'd start at half past nine and I'd finish at half past two.

Kathryn Ladley:

I worked five days a week, but short hours.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I'd finish it half, two or three o'clock so that I could get home to

Kathryn Ladley:

pick my daughter up at half past three.

Kathryn Ladley:

And every day it got to, you know, time for me to leave.

Kathryn Ladley:

And he'd be looking at his watch and said, oh, how you going already?

Kathryn Ladley:

And that's said, yeah, got to pick my daughter up.

Kathryn Ladley:

She'll be stood outside school if I don't go now, sort of thing.

Kathryn Ladley:

And it was always the worry, what if the motorway is closed

Kathryn Ladley:

and I can't, that anxiety

Marion Ellis:

is horrible.

Marion Ellis:

I,

Kathryn Ladley:

I don't miss that at all.

Kathryn Ladley:

. It just thought I, I ought to be.

Kathryn Ladley:

, you know, I'm talking to you about this, you need to stay until I finish

Kathryn Ladley:

talking and I'm thinking, no, I've got

Marion Ellis:

to go

Marion Ellis:

And it almost, I think sometimes when you work, part-time, it's like

Marion Ellis:

everybody becomes a clock watcher.

Marion Ellis:

You know, how many times do you make a cup of tea?

Marion Ellis:

How long does it take to go up the loo?

Marion Ellis:

You know, and it's like, was those hours are all reduced into what

Marion Ellis:

are you actually contributing?

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

You've got micromanaged.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

To a degree

Kathryn Ladley:

it doesn't.

Kathryn Ladley:

Same, you know, the ones that are there now is probably have more tea, but

Marion Ellis:

Things like that.

Marion Ellis:

Sometimes it's just looking busy, isn't it?

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

o over the, one of the things that I find, a bit frustrating is where you come across

Marion Ellis:

women later on in their careers who are very, well, it was hard for us, so we'll

Marion Ellis:

just, you just get on with it, you know?

Marion Ellis:

things have changed.

Marion Ellis:

Everybody is different in terms of their perspectives and

Marion Ellis:

sometimes just battling through.

Marion Ellis:

doesn't solve the problem.

Marion Ellis:

Doesn't No, doesn't help.

Marion Ellis:

You know.

Marion Ellis:

what advice would you give to women further down the

Marion Ellis:

line from your experience?

Kathryn Ladley:

I don't know, really.

Kathryn Ladley:

I mean, this is a case of how much you want to do, what you are doing, and if you

Kathryn Ladley:

really want to, sometimes you've just got to put up with some things, haven't you?

Kathryn Ladley:

to get through that curve

Marion Ellis:

thing.

Marion Ellis:

It's the bit, what's the bigger picture?

Marion Ellis:

The bigger goal.

Kathryn Ladley:

Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

You shouldn't have to do that, but sometimes that's just the way it is.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, as I say, I couldn't given up in the early stages, but, because

Kathryn Ladley:

things could have been different that you just think, well, I want this.

Kathryn Ladley:

It's the only way I'm gonna get it.

Kathryn Ladley:

What am I gonna do if I don't carry on doing what I'm doing?

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, just put up with it.

Kathryn Ladley:

and I suppose I was very fortunate that I had my husband who,

Kathryn Ladley:

understood what people were like.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I, this probably sounds a bit dramatic, but I don't think I've ever

Kathryn Ladley:

met anybody other than my husband that could have been as supportive in my life.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, because he used to get together because they knew him where I worked

Kathryn Ladley:

at late city council, he worked there.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, there used to be things like, oh, how does Ian feel that

Kathryn Ladley:

you are earning more money than him?

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, that sort of thing.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, the answers used to be, well, he laughs all the way to the bank, you

Kathryn Ladley:

know, , and they used to go, said that their wives were, shop assistants or

Kathryn Ladley:

hairdressers or something like that.

Kathryn Ladley:

and I was earning a man's wage, you know, that's not fair sort of thing.

Kathryn Ladley:

And well, It's life, you know, you just put up with it.

Kathryn Ladley:

I had to go through a lot to get to the point where I was earning more,

Kathryn Ladley:

you know, my parents had no money at all, so it was a struggle to stay on

Kathryn Ladley:

the school and do everything I did.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, I think the student grant was something like 99 pounds a term in 1976,

Kathryn Ladley:

. And, you know, you rent your books, you food and everything, transport and things.

Kathryn Ladley:

So it's a good job.

Kathryn Ladley:

Money went a bit further in those days,

Marion Ellis:

isn't it?

Marion Ellis:

? Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

Agree.

Marion Ellis:

It's all relative I guess.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah, I think you know, in, in

Kathryn Ladley:

a way you've got to be certain it's what you want to do.

Kathryn Ladley:

What

Marion Ellis:

that, why are you doing it?

Marion Ellis:

It can't just be about the money.

Marion Ellis:

Cause there are lots of different ways that you can earn money and Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

earn more money elsewhere, probably doing different things.

Marion Ellis:

And it's coming back to that, why do you do what you do?

Marion Ellis:

What is it that motivates you and.

Marion Ellis:

that will help you move forward.

Marion Ellis:

Do you feel, optimistic, or not about the future of construction and surveying?

Marion Ellis:

You know, as you've seen it changed over the years?

Kathryn Ladley:

It, I mean, there will always be a need

Kathryn Ladley:

for buildings of some nature.

Kathryn Ladley:

Well, so the, you know, a construction itself has to go on whether we're

Kathryn Ladley:

building things that are recognizable, you know, in 50 years ahead.

Kathryn Ladley:

Not it's a different matter, isn't it?

Kathryn Ladley:

But, part of me feels sad that ways change.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, I, back in the early days, I was a real Bills a quantities type

Kathryn Ladley:

person that loved that part of the job.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I suppose there's a bit of sadness that we don't do

Kathryn Ladley:

that sort of thing anymore.

Kathryn Ladley:

but the time together of.

Kathryn Ladley:

building things and the money you spend on it and what's available

Kathryn Ladley:

are always going to be there.

Kathryn Ladley:

There's always going to be that, those sort of questions asked

Kathryn Ladley:

and answered in the process.

Kathryn Ladley:

but it's quite worrying when you, because of the current financial climate and

Kathryn Ladley:

everything that you do wonder what's going to happen over the next few years.

Kathryn Ladley:

And there are so many people leaving the industry that, you know, the

Kathryn Ladley:

sort of shortage of different skill sets is really worrying.

Kathryn Ladley:

And I can't see necessarily that building back anywhere near the levels.

Kathryn Ladley:

It's been in the past, which is sad.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And if we look at the past, you know, in lots of different professions and

Marion Ellis:

sectors, there's been skill gaps.

Marion Ellis:

you know, and it always takes a while to build back up, and then it drops off again

Marion Ellis:

and it builds back up and drops off again.

Marion Ellis:

and you know, unless, you know, we're recording this in the uk unless the

Marion Ellis:

UK government really puts housing and construction on the agenda in

Marion Ellis:

the right way, focusing on people.

Marion Ellis:

I mean, you know, we've had like 20 plus housing ministers in as many

Marion Ellis:

years, which is absolutely crazy.

Marion Ellis:

You know, how can anyone, how can there be consistency and will

Marion Ellis:

focus if it's not on the agenda and having someone to care about it.

Marion Ellis:

as we sit today, everybody's talking about, and chat.

Marion Ellis:

G p t has just been launched where it can you ask it a question and it

Marion Ellis:

can write you all sorts of documents, articles, blogs, on LinkedIn Right now,

Marion Ellis:

everybody has been really helpful with, here's five top tips for whatever it is.

Marion Ellis:

and it's been written by computers.

Marion Ellis:

but when I look, if you look back at each, at lots of different stages

Marion Ellis:

in terms of construction and things it was all about new and innovation.

Marion Ellis:

You know, I don't think are, you know, some buildings were built

Marion Ellis:

to last, some definitely weren't.

Marion Ellis:

You know, if you think about 1950s houses, if you think about some of the Victorian,

Marion Ellis:

ones, they weren't built to last.

Marion Ellis:

And I think some of them would probably be horrified that they

Marion Ellis:

would still be sending, you know, a hundred and 150 years later.

Marion Ellis:

And so we've already got to be thinking about the future, but it's still scary.

Marion Ellis:

You know, to think about industrial re revolution and everything went,

Marion Ellis:

you know, mechanical and automated things change and we've got to adapt.

Marion Ellis:

The key to it, I guess, is not to resist it.

Marion Ellis:

And I think there's some moral and ethical things we've got to think about with

Marion Ellis:

ai, and that kind of thing, but it's finding ways that it can help us do our

Marion Ellis:

job better, and not fear it, but also not forget the old skills at the same time.

Marion Ellis:

yeah.

Marion Ellis:

You know, because there was a reason why they came about.

Marion Ellis:

And power cuts happen at the end of the day.

Marion Ellis:

Computers go down and, you know, we sometimes we've still gotta

Marion Ellis:

get on with our job, haven't we?

Kathryn Ladley:

I, when I came into the industry in the seventies, there

Kathryn Ladley:

was a lot of system building going on.

Kathryn Ladley:

Lots of leads were throwing up houses.

Kathryn Ladley:

that were done by Spooners and Wimpey No-Fines fines and

Kathryn Ladley:

all sorts of things like that.

Kathryn Ladley:

And most of my career have been involved in schemes that were doing annual repairs

Kathryn Ladley:

and maintenance on those types of things.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, leads has s had SLAs for, repairing, the area type houses and,

Kathryn Ladley:

year after year that pick another batch and repair them and carry on.

Kathryn Ladley:

And you almost get a sort of sinking in your heart sort of 15 years

Kathryn Ladley:

ago when they start talking about modular construction way forward.

Kathryn Ladley:

Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

Back up all these pods and you know, and just stick them outside.

Kathryn Ladley:

Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

There is that element that you can control the manufacturer when it's in a nice,

Kathryn Ladley:

warm factory and things like that, but you've still got somebody on a cold damp.

Kathryn Ladley:

Snowy, windy building site that perhaps isn't quite as

Kathryn Ladley:

skilled as they ought to be, and

Marion Ellis:

it's just doing their best.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

And it's not just a case of looking at one part of the industry, it's

Kathryn Ladley:

how we're going to make it fit together and work for everyone else.

Kathryn Ladley:

And, you know, I sometimes we stumble into

Marion Ellis:

things without thinking too much.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And I guess, I guess it's similar to, you know, what we sort of started

Marion Ellis:

talking about at the start, of the conversation was you can draw the line,

Marion Ellis:

but we can't forget, you know, we can draw the line and say, right, modular

Marion Ellis:

housing, everything's 3D printed and we're gonna use AI to do everything.

Marion Ellis:

But we've still got this stock of old houses and old buildings

Marion Ellis:

that actually we quite like.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

, you know, and it makes us feel good.

Marion Ellis:

you know, it's finding that balance between the past and the future, isn't it?

Marion Ellis:

. Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

It's, I think that, you know, that's very true.

Kathryn Ladley:

We're all individuals and we've quite a long way to go, to get to the point where

Kathryn Ladley:

everybody wants to live in exactly the same type of box type house, and, travel.

Marion Ellis:

That would just be, that would just be boring.

Marion Ellis:

Wouldn't it though, if we all did the same thing.

Marion Ellis:

That, and actually that's probably why we've got such a variety of buildings

Marion Ellis:

and property here in the uk because we like, we don't wanna be the same.

Marion Ellis:

It's what makes us human, isn't it?

Kathryn Ladley:

It's why we put plants outside our front door, isn't

Kathryn Ladley:

it just to make our house look a bit different to someone else's and

Marion Ellis:

Absolutely.

Marion Ellis:

and that ridiculous cladding that some people have.

Marion Ellis:

And like, what was it?

Marion Ellis:

Vera and Jack on Coronation Street.

Marion Ellis:

. I remember when that came out cuz one of my neighbors, we lived

Marion Ellis:

in a council house in a row.

Marion Ellis:

One of the neighbors on the end had it and it was like, oh, it's like

Marion Ellis:

Jack and Beer, so, what will happen when you think about retiring?

Marion Ellis:

Do you think about retiring?

Marion Ellis:

how do you know when it's time?

Marion Ellis:

all time with a sense of dread.

Marion Ellis:

what things make you think about retiring?

Marion Ellis:

Is it work being too much, too heavy tiredness or?

Marion Ellis:

I

Kathryn Ladley:

think it's, I read something the other day.

Kathryn Ladley:

it was one of these cliche statements that, that people don't leave.

Kathryn Ladley:

jobs necessarily because of the work.

Kathryn Ladley:

it's the management that goes with there.

Kathryn Ladley:

You know, I am perfectly happy with the management system, you

Kathryn Ladley:

know, where I work and that stuff.

Kathryn Ladley:

But I think if that changed Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

And, you know, if for whatever reason it wasn't as pleasurable, then I would

Kathryn Ladley:

like, I quite like being in the position where, and you know, I don't want

Kathryn Ladley:

this to sound boasting or anything.

Kathryn Ladley:

I'm not doing it for the money.

Kathryn Ladley:

I do it because I like my job.

Kathryn Ladley:

Yeah.

Kathryn Ladley:

But it's good being in the position to think, if I don't like it, I can

Marion Ellis:

say, but that's what your, that's what your experience

Marion Ellis:

and career has afforded you.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

To get to a position where you get to choose, and that must

Marion Ellis:

feel quite empower, empowering.

Kathryn Ladley:

I don't like that.

Kathryn Ladley:

I don't have to put up with it , you know, and I think it's part of my Yorkshire

Kathryn Ladley:

upbringing, you know, that, I don't call a sp to spade to shovel, you know.

Marion Ellis:

So you might end, so you might end up a bit

Marion Ellis:

cantankerous in your old age.

Marion Ellis:

Oh, I think I'm already there.

Marion Ellis:

Oh, Kathryn, it's been lovely to catch up and speak with you today.

Marion Ellis:

Thank you.

Marion Ellis:

I've really enjoyed it.

Marion Ellis:

Thank you.

Marion Ellis:

So

Marion Ellis:

Thanks for listening.

Marion Ellis:

I hope you enjoyed the podcast.

Marion Ellis:

I'll see you next time.

Marion Ellis:

If you found this helpful, then, do leave us a review on Apple

Marion Ellis:

iTunes or pop along to the website.

Marion Ellis:

lovesurveying.com, and you can find all sorts of resources tucked away in there.

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Marion Ellis

As a chartered surveyor with a background in defect and valuation claims, Marion has first-hand experience of why we make mistakes and what we need to do to support ourselves to prevent them. A Fellow member of the RICS and qualified customer experience professional, Marion is passionate about empowering people. At Love Surveying, she provides the support, coaching and networking surveyors and property professionals need to handle career challenges confidently and navigate the right business journey for them. Founder of The Surveyor Hub podcast and community Marion also supports surveyors in business through her coaching and mentoring programmes. Marion is an Ambassador for Lionheart.