bonus

Residential Surveying and RICS Governing Council with Richard Ballam and Jonathan Milner

In this bonus episode Marion Ellis chats with Richard Ballam and Jonathan Milner the two Residential seat candidates for the RICS Governing Council elections which close on April 24th 2023.

It was recorded as a webinar and shared with The Surveyor Hub Community as an opportunity for the two candidates to share their insights and understanding of the residential sector.

The podcast covers a number of matters from qualification and competency, the lack of candidates for the UK seats, how to reach and connect with surveyors as well as views on the Home Survey Standard which applies in the UK.

Transcript
Marion Ellis:

Welcome to the Survey Hub podcast.

Marion Ellis:

I'm Marian Ellis.

Marion Ellis:

This is a rough and ready bonus episode today, where I have a chat with Richard

Marion Ellis:

Ballam and Jonathan Milner, who are the residential, seats in the UK and island,

Marion Ellis:

r i c s governing council elections.

Marion Ellis:

We recorded it as.

Marion Ellis:

An impromptu webinar, last night, and it was meant to be live streamed into

Marion Ellis:

the Facebook group, but I, I couldn't work the buttons, so it didn't happen.

Marion Ellis:

But it was such a, a useful conversation, I think for, for residential surveyors.

Marion Ellis:

I thought it would be good to take the audio and see if I

Marion Ellis:

can put it out as a podcast.

Marion Ellis:

So have a listen.

Marion Ellis:

I'll add some bits and pieces in these show notes.

Marion Ellis:

and lemme know what you think.

Marion Ellis:

So, hello, um, Jonathan and Richard and apologies for everybody, everybody

Marion Ellis:

watching on replay because, um, I was supposed to live stream this into

Marion Ellis:

the Facebook group and obviously I can't get the session to work, um,

Marion Ellis:

me and my tech, but there we go.

Marion Ellis:

So we've got it recorded and we'll upload it and you can all watch it afterwards

Marion Ellis:

and I'm sure Richard and Jonathan will be happy to answer any questions that mm-hmm.

Marion Ellis:

Uh, that come up, uh, afterwards.

Marion Ellis:

So busy.

Marion Ellis:

Thank you for, for coming on.

Marion Ellis:

Um, it's, uh, late later in the evening.

Marion Ellis:

Then, uh, uh, then we were meant to get started.

Marion Ellis:

Um, and I appreciate you, you taking your time.

Marion Ellis:

I thought it would be really useful and insightful to have a

Marion Ellis:

chat with you so that people can get to know a bit more about you.

Marion Ellis:

Cause not everybody does.

Marion Ellis:

I know you in uh, both in, in different ways over many years.

Marion Ellis:

Um, and also just to share a, you know, a few of your

Marion Ellis:

thoughts, some of the concerns.

Marion Ellis:

I know you, you know, surveyors have, um, and an opportunity to, to have a

Marion Ellis:

little bit more of a, a voice, I suppose.

Marion Ellis:

So as we record this, it's uh, Monday night we've got the

Marion Ellis:

governing council elections.

Marion Ellis:

Which close?

Marion Ellis:

Is it on Friday or is it Monday?

Marion Ellis:

End of the week, isn't it?

Jonathan Milner:

24th at noon?

Jonathan Milner:

Yeah.

Jonathan Milner:

Yes.

Jonathan Milner:

Fourth at noon this Monday.

Marion Ellis:

Okay.

Marion Ellis:

Cool.

Marion Ellis:

Okay then, so let's do a couple of intros.

Marion Ellis:

So let's start with you, Jonathan.

Marion Ellis:

Tell us a little bit about you, who you are, what, what

Marion Ellis:

flavor of surveyor you are.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, so I'm residential survey evaluation.

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, do you want me to go back to Dave dot?

Jonathan Milner:

Um,

Marion Ellis:

no.

Marion Ellis:

Cause we haven't got like, you know, million hours.

Jonathan Milner:

All right.

Jonathan Milner:

Alright.

Jonathan Milner:

Give us a short version.

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, currently technical and development surveyor for a, a small

Jonathan Milner:

but growing firm of surveyors.

Jonathan Milner:

We do value survey only stuff, uh, around the country.

Jonathan Milner:

So at the moment I'm still on the ladders doing the odd survey, but also training.

Jonathan Milner:

I would surveyors, training them up, auditing C p d, uh, policies,

Jonathan Milner:

procedures, and then everything that gets involved with the business

Jonathan Milner:

that's growing really, uh, as well.

Jonathan Milner:

I currently sit under governing council, under the presidential

Jonathan Milner:

global strategy seat.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, so I'm, I'm for election again because we, we abolished the seat,

Jonathan Milner:

uh, under the Biard review and I've, I've studied the ladder, uh, and now

Jonathan Milner:

I want to climb it a little bit to see how we can benefit from members.

Jonathan Milner:

So that's why I'm sitting for an extra term,

Marion Ellis:

more term.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And, um, I was on governing council.

Marion Ellis:

Um, yeah, I think I came off just as you came on.

Marion Ellis:

I think, yeah, a bit, an overlap of a, of a month or two, something like that.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

Um, and yeah, so for anybody who has no idea, you need to go read all

Marion Ellis:

about the, the report, report, some of the changes that are, that have been

Marion Ellis:

made, um, and you'll sort of get up to speed, but effectively there's a, a

Marion Ellis:

new world, a new structure happening.

Marion Ellis:

It's taken a little bit of time, I think, to, to, you know, to

Marion Ellis:

get sorted and to start moving.

Marion Ellis:

Hopefully this year we'll see more things happen and we can, we can talk about that.

Marion Ellis:

Um, but, uh, super thank you for having, for coming on.

Marion Ellis:

And Richard,

Richard Ballam:

yeah, a broadly similar background to Jonathan.

Richard Ballam:

I'm a residential survey through and through.

Richard Ballam:

Um, I'm currently working for a firm that panels out surveying, valu and private

Richard Ballam:

valuation work, um, all over the country.

Richard Ballam:

Uh, like John, I'm some ladders most days, uh, doing surveys

Richard Ballam:

because it's, it's simply what I've done for last 20 odd years and

Richard Ballam:

thorough, thoroughly enjoy doing it.

Richard Ballam:

Um, I started off at the, with this governing council provost actually

Richard Ballam:

by looking at the diversity and inclusion board when that, when that

Richard Ballam:

those jobs pay available partly cause I thought it was really important.

Richard Ballam:

Um, but also cause I wanted to do something with the RRCs to help.

Richard Ballam:

And when I read the job spec and the person specification.

Richard Ballam:

I read that I thought, that is not me, and it's too important to jobs

Richard Ballam:

cock up by just, by just putting the application in for the sake of it.

Richard Ballam:

So file was all in the bin.

Richard Ballam:

And then the governing council stuff, uh, positions came up

Richard Ballam:

and thought, you know what?

Richard Ballam:

This is something I want to do to put back into the RRCs.

Richard Ballam:

So I've a member for all you lot, all my working life as a surveyor and

Richard Ballam:

having seen the mess that led to Levitt and then need for the ARD review.

Richard Ballam:

The governing council now has been doing a brilliant job, beginning the work to

Richard Ballam:

start fixing things and want to be part of that, making, making it best for members.

Marion Ellis:

And we know each other because many moons ago, we

Marion Ellis:

both worked for the same firm, um, countrywide 10, 15 years ago,

Marion Ellis:

something like that might have been.

Marion Ellis:

Um, yeah, we just hang about see you and I see you like, uh,

Marion Ellis:

like we all, like we all do.

Marion Ellis:

Um, And you're right, it's, it's, it's interesting cuz I was on

Marion Ellis:

governing council and I didn't know what I was letting myself in for.

Marion Ellis:

Uh, and that was a, a horrible and an amazing life experience.

Marion Ellis:

At the same time.

Marion Ellis:

It's the kind of thing that, you know, you sign up for these effectively volunteer

Marion Ellis:

trustee committee type roles, um, you know, and then the worst happens, um, and

Marion Ellis:

you get involved in and, and those things.

Marion Ellis:

And so whilst that was difficult, it was actually from a career point

Marion Ellis:

of view, really, really interesting.

Marion Ellis:

Cuz I'd never seen, you know, the, um, a global view, if you like, of the R I C S.

Marion Ellis:

It was always, you know, just from a very slim, uh, slim sector.

Marion Ellis:

So that was really, really enlightening.

Marion Ellis:

So it must be interesting for you both having seen the fallout

Marion Ellis:

if you liked, on the other side.

Marion Ellis:

And then coming into it, now that, you know, things are, uh, are, are

Marion Ellis:

starting, uh, starting to move, um, have you, had you applied for either

Marion Ellis:

of you any other, uh, types of roles within our i c s on boards, panels,

Marion Ellis:

committees, anything like that?

Marion Ellis:

I mean, now, Richard, you mentioned the d e I board, um, but have you

Marion Ellis:

ever got involved in any other way?

Richard Ballam:

Uh, I was, um, many years ago, uh, passed the Northwest

Richard Ballam:

Committee of the r c s, the Northwest.

Richard Ballam:

It was northwest area board at the time it was called.

Richard Ballam:

Um, but that in effect met once or twice and did pretty much nothing.

Richard Ballam:

Um, so at that time, getting the artist to do anything was really hard.

Richard Ballam:

And, um, in the end I came off for lack of time.

Richard Ballam:

But in all, all honesty, my short period on that was, was probably six or

Richard Ballam:

eight months was, um, a waste of time for everyone concern, unfortunately.

Richard Ballam:

Hmm.

Marion Ellis:

What about you, Jonathan?

Jonathan Milner:

No.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, I, I was rushed into hospital for an operation and oh, there's an excuse.

Jonathan Milner:

There we go.

Jonathan Milner:

I'm sympathy.

Jonathan Milner:

Sympathy.

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, so, and while I was there, I, I, I'd been occasionally on LinkedIn and

Jonathan Milner:

seen the grumbles about the R I C S.

Jonathan Milner:

And so I, I had, I was that, uh, in a hospital with a fully charged iPad and

Jonathan Milner:

reading, uh, some of the comments that were going on on the, the, the posts.

Jonathan Milner:

And I thought, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna get involved.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, and one, the, the, the post came up saying, apply for this election.

Jonathan Milner:

And I thought, I'll do it.

Jonathan Milner:

Instead of sitting there or typing in a complaint, I'll, I'll get

Jonathan Milner:

involved and see what you side,

Marion Ellis:

you, you thought, I'm not dead yet.

Jonathan Milner:

No, might as well I'm gonna get there,

Jonathan Milner:

drag myself into the ground.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, and then it happened.

Jonathan Milner:

So, and you, you deal with it.

Jonathan Milner:

But no, I'm.

Jonathan Milner:

I, I'm thankful to the governing council before, um, that had to

Jonathan Milner:

go through Levit, Biard, COVID.

Jonathan Milner:

I feel in a way that I'm standing on the shoulder of giants in that way.

Jonathan Milner:

That the work that you had to do in the situation you had to do is, I almost

Jonathan Milner:

feel like I am a bit piggybacking on the work that you've done.

Jonathan Milner:

And part of the, maybe the pressure I put myself under to continue on it is to

Jonathan Milner:

say that what you did and can't let you down in that way by carrying it forward.

Jonathan Milner:

So now it's, it's rolling it out and making sure that we do that.

Jonathan Milner:

The boat's been being steadied.

Jonathan Milner:

Is it, does it need a, a foot now to, to push it forward and carrying

Jonathan Milner:

it on in the right direction?

Jonathan Milner:

Cause I need it, I think it constantly needs to be, be steered

Jonathan Milner:

to be going in the right direction for an organization of that size.

Jonathan Milner:

But I'd say.

Jonathan Milner:

Being on governing council is a little bit like running a marathon for charity.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, you're, you know, it, people are clapping you own while you're doing it,

Jonathan Milner:

but you might turn a corner and somebody throws a pint of unmentionable at you.

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, and at the end of it, you're gonna be knackered and you're

Jonathan Milner:

gonna have sewer feet, and, but you're doing it for other people.

Jonathan Milner:

You're do, you're doing it.

Jonathan Milner:

Yeah.

Jonathan Milner:

So I think that, that's kind of how I put it in my

Marion Ellis:

head.

Marion Ellis:

I think that's, that's a really good, good way of looking at it.

Marion Ellis:

Lots of ways.

Marion Ellis:

Um, because it is about the purpose.

Marion Ellis:

There's a reason, reason that we, we do this and there's a

Marion Ellis:

reason that we become surveyors.

Marion Ellis:

You know, on the podcast we have lots of people talking about, uh, about that.

Marion Ellis:

And it's more than just the technical side of the job.

Marion Ellis:

And, you know, the, the geekiness that we, that we like, there's,

Marion Ellis:

it's a very human thing.

Marion Ellis:

And what's also is sort a quite, um, interesting.

Marion Ellis:

And it's the same with any.

Marion Ellis:

Council or, or committee role is that, sorry.

Marion Ellis:

Got fly chasing me.

Marion Ellis:

Um, is that, um, you know, you're, you're a term on a term on a board or a

Marion Ellis:

committee for a, a term, a chunk of time.

Marion Ellis:

And then the next people come in and then the next people come in.

Marion Ellis:

And that continuity has got to be really clear.

Marion Ellis:

You've gotta pass the button on.

Marion Ellis:

But, you know, it's very, very kind of you to say that we, we did a great, great job.

Marion Ellis:

There's a lot of people who think that we didn't, you know, and you

Marion Ellis:

have that, you know, up and down, but you've gotta be headed in the right

Marion Ellis:

direction and constantly reviewing, handing over, listening, listening

Marion Ellis:

and getting feedback, but not making those sort of knee-jerk reactions.

Marion Ellis:

And governing council and trustee roles are very much about the long game.

Marion Ellis:

Whereas the other boards, you can be more, um, reactive, proactive

Marion Ellis:

to, to different things that are, that are happen happening.

Marion Ellis:

Um, as we've, um, you know, we're, we're recording this, uh, there's lots of,

Marion Ellis:

uh, election seats, um, available, but the UK and I, UK and island seats, of

Marion Ellis:

which there were eight went uncontested.

Marion Ellis:

Um, can you, for those, uh, students and others who don't understand, can

Marion Ellis:

one of you explain what that means?

Richard Ballam:

Yeah, broad.

Richard Ballam:

I'll, I'll take this for a minute.

Richard Ballam:

And Jonathan, add on.

Richard Ballam:

But the, under the rules of the election, not enough people, candidates applied for

Richard Ballam:

the seats for an election to take place, and therefore, on the existing rules, the

Richard Ballam:

people who did apply were ion opposed.

Richard Ballam:

Um, now that is simply the r c s follow.

Richard Ballam:

It's rules.

Richard Ballam:

Now people have a view that they, or there's been some very strong views

Richard Ballam:

expressed about the lack of an election.

Richard Ballam:

But it's, the process as far as I can tell, simply worked as it was designed.

Richard Ballam:

And that doesn't mean the process was the best it could have been

Richard Ballam:

all right, but it, it's what we have and, and it, and it's worked.

Richard Ballam:

And I believe seven people would've appointed Murray.

Richard Ballam:

Is that correct or do we not know?

Richard Ballam:

Uh, I,

Marion Ellis:

I, I believe one person has stood down, one person stood down

Richard Ballam:

seven.

Richard Ballam:

But, um, but the, um, which again was a very principled stand.

Richard Ballam:

They understand why, why that moment's taken that decision.

Richard Ballam:

And I think he, um, cause he decided he didn't want to be appointed in that way.

Richard Ballam:

Um, it's just a shame in some respects that.

Richard Ballam:

One things that came out of Bechard was a rebalancing of governing council

Richard Ballam:

towards UK and Ireland because there'd been a feeling from the membership for a

Richard Ballam:

long time that we had this global agenda and very little UK representation from

Richard Ballam:

what was mainly UK based organization.

Richard Ballam:

And that having put the extra seats on governing council UK Island,

Richard Ballam:

I was quite surprised that they didn't have enough applications

Richard Ballam:

to go ahead and it's just a shame.

Richard Ballam:

I'm not sure what we can learn from it.

Richard Ballam:

I think perhaps the rules need looking at to see whether, because they clearly

Richard Ballam:

haven't worked as the members or some members who are expressing a strong view.

Richard Ballam:

Have liked and I

Marion Ellis:

Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it?

Marion Ellis:

Before I chip in, give my views.

Marion Ellis:

Well, but what, uh, what you, uh, Jonathan, any thoughts on, on it?

Marion Ellis:

And, and actually, you know, I, I know both of you got together and had a

Marion Ellis:

chat and you've put a post out Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

To say that actually we're gonna go ahead and, and do, go for the residential seat.

Marion Ellis:

And I was quite pleased about that.

Marion Ellis:

You know, not so much whether you went for it or not, but you, you just, you

Marion Ellis:

talked and agreed actually for the sake of the residential surveyors and

Marion Ellis:

the seat that this represents, this is what we think is the best thing to do.

Marion Ellis:

And you, you got on with it and made a decision.

Marion Ellis:

So I'm, I'm pleased actually, that you did that.

Jonathan Milner:

Yeah.

Jonathan Milner:

It was transparency and communication, which are the main things that is.

Jonathan Milner:

It's, it's what I want from the R I C s is being transparent in, in

Jonathan Milner:

how they do things and communicate.

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, I think that's what members really want to be told is, uh, can I do this?

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, and if not, why can't I do it?

Jonathan Milner:

And, and if we are, if we relay that to members, then I think

Jonathan Milner:

we, that's part of the battle.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, so there, there, there's one c for every 10,000 members.

Jonathan Milner:

So, um, that was, was to be the eight eight C.

Jonathan Milner:

So as Richard said, a principled, uh, person that's withdrawn, uh, it's,

Jonathan Milner:

we are now having to go forward.

Jonathan Milner:

We need.

Jonathan Milner:

Watchmen watching the watchmen in that way.

Jonathan Milner:

We need, we need some, we need a non-executive function.

Jonathan Milner:

And the reason why, me and Richard, we spoke about it.

Jonathan Milner:

We, we, we've got our, our joint statement, which I think

Jonathan Milner:

was the right thing to do.

Jonathan Milner:

We wanted to give members a choice.

Jonathan Milner:

It's, it's two people.

Jonathan Milner:

I would, I rather it be five people.

Jonathan Milner:

Yeah.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, well, or 10 people even.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, I think it was right that we gave people an option that they get to

Jonathan Milner:

choose someone who is in that seat.

Jonathan Milner:

But as a non-executive function, the governing council has to be there to

Jonathan Milner:

watch over and to questions and to opt to ask the difficult questions of why

Jonathan Milner:

we're doing what we're doing for members.

Jonathan Milner:

So ultimately, I think that the thing is, is it's for members while we're

Jonathan Milner:

standing, we may be criticized by some for doing what we've done, but I think it's

Jonathan Milner:

across the board all of the membership that we need to be representing.

Marion Ellis:

Mm-hmm.

Marion Ellis:

And I guess there's two sides to it, isn't it?

Marion Ellis:

There's the, um, You know, as you say the rules, you know the rules.

Marion Ellis:

Are they the right rules in place?

Marion Ellis:

And everybody knows I've gotta, a thing about the rules that are

Marion Ellis:

right are ICS across the board.

Marion Ellis:

Um, but if you don't have a governing council, you don't have an R I C S.

Marion Ellis:

And you know, when you start to look at how our I c s is set up and it's, you

Marion Ellis:

know, the most unusual of organizations as, you know, part business, part part

Marion Ellis:

membership, but it has a royal charter with bylaws, it reports to privy council.

Marion Ellis:

And so it can't be as reactive as it should, and therefore

Marion Ellis:

it needs to plan ahead.

Marion Ellis:

It needs to think about, it, needs to think about, you know, um,

Marion Ellis:

disaster, uh, recovery plan, if you like, of what, if nobody wants to

Marion Ellis:

stand for governing council and put that into the, uh, into the plan.

Marion Ellis:

Um, you know, so, uh, you know, um, I have no feeling either way over

Marion Ellis:

making a stand to, to go ahead or not.

Marion Ellis:

I think they're both right.

Marion Ellis:

It's just a very difficult situation.

Marion Ellis:

Um, what I find really, really disappointing is out of the 80,000

Marion Ellis:

people, members in the uk, only eight could be asked to put themselves forward.

Marion Ellis:

Now, both of you have put themselves, put yourselves forward for, you

Marion Ellis:

know, what they call the top job.

Marion Ellis:

Whether they, whether it's that or not.

Marion Ellis:

I don't, I don't know.

Marion Ellis:

Um, it ain't that glamorous, you know, but there will be a lot of people who

Marion Ellis:

will be looking to put themselves for these other roles and that's the problem.

Marion Ellis:

I know quite a few people put themselves for the, um, d e I role.

Marion Ellis:

Um, and then that seems to have withed and things happened with it.

Marion Ellis:

Um, you know, there'll be other roles in that coming forward, and it's

Marion Ellis:

always that sort of chicken and egg.

Marion Ellis:

What job do you, do you apply for?

Marion Ellis:

Bear in mind, it takes a lot of guts to put yourself forward.

Marion Ellis:

For something like this, because you've gotta go through an election

Marion Ellis:

process, so it's partly popularity and, and all those things as well.

Marion Ellis:

Um, but why do you think only eight people put themselves for the UK and island seat?

Marion Ellis:

Why do you think not many people, not really residential

Marion Ellis:

surveyors put themselves forward?

Marion Ellis:

I think that the,

Jonathan Milner:

I'm sorry.

Jonathan Milner:

After I, is it that they feel that the I is is not quite ready?

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, that there's quite a bit of hard work to turn before it's attractive?

Jonathan Milner:

Um, is it that the time commitment's quite a lot?

Jonathan Milner:

Um, if, if te Yeah.

Jonathan Milner:

You put a poll on, uh, Marion, you put a poll on LinkedIn.

Marion Ellis:

Uh, I did.

Marion Ellis:

I forgot about

Jonathan Milner:

that.

Jonathan Milner:

Look, if, if, if 10% of those people that had voted on that poll had had stood.

Jonathan Milner:

We would've had, we would've competition in the, in the UK and early.

Jonathan Milner:

So those sat follows those seats, we would've had more involvement.

Jonathan Milner:

So I think it's, it's transferring that people have opinions, it's

Jonathan Milner:

transferring it from opinions to action.

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, and what is it that blocks them from that commitment?

Jonathan Milner:

Now, is it the time commitment that's involved?

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, is it the put in your head above the parapet that then you

Marion Ellis:

are gonna get I don't think it's, I don't, I don't think it is.

Marion Ellis:

Um, I, so in the poll, um, we had, I mean, you know, this isn't

Marion Ellis:

scientific by, by any means.

Marion Ellis:

Um, we had 264 people vote.

Marion Ellis:

Um, 67% said, no, it shouldn't.

Marion Ellis:

Go ahead.

Marion Ellis:

Um, but 15% found a solution and mostly that was get it sorted.

Marion Ellis:

Then the first job you get, get in and the first job you do is sort it out,

Marion Ellis:

you know, and, and as, as the action.

Marion Ellis:

Um, and then those who said yes, 18% were, um, It's gotta go ahead.

Marion Ellis:

You don't have an R I C S without a governor council, but you know, this

Marion Ellis:

isn't, uh, stats and science here.

Marion Ellis:

We did run a similar poll in, um, in the Facebook group, and it

Marion Ellis:

was about 50 50 roughly, whether it, whether it should or not.

Marion Ellis:

So it all all depends on who you ask, who's gonna, you know, moan or, or not.

Marion Ellis:

Um, for me, I think the reason it didn't, uh, or hasn't gone ahead or, or

Marion Ellis:

rather people haven't, haven't stepped up and, uh, is that, why would you,

Marion Ellis:

you know, it's not about putting your head above the paraba parapet, it's

Marion Ellis:

not about the time commitment, because people have done all of that before and

Marion Ellis:

we can do some of those hard things.

Marion Ellis:

It's the gap between how R I C S has engaged with members and not

Marion Ellis:

just R I C S, but every single board and committee and person all the

Marion Ellis:

way down, how they've engaged with members over the last couple of years.

Marion Ellis:

And there's been very few visible surveyors, there's

Marion Ellis:

been very little encouragement.

Marion Ellis:

Um, you know, it's like some people have been paralyzed waiting for Bihar's

Marion Ellis:

report to see what what's happening.

Marion Ellis:

Um, you know, there's been very little human, um, encouragement to say, you

Marion Ellis:

know, put yourself forward or yes, you can do this and here's the experience.

Marion Ellis:

It's been quite flat.

Marion Ellis:

And I think it's that couple then with some of the disappointments that people

Marion Ellis:

feel in terms of, particularly on the residential side, how we feel about the

Marion Ellis:

quality of home surveys, home survey, standard governance action being taken.

Marion Ellis:

Um, and more and more people have been more personally

Marion Ellis:

affected by that as they've seen different, different situations.

Marion Ellis:

But I think that engagement piece is quite, is quite key.

Marion Ellis:

I dunno.

Marion Ellis:

Richard, have you got any thoughts?

Richard Ballam:

Yeah, I think it, I think it's a bit even deeper

Richard Ballam:

than that in terms of engagement.

Richard Ballam:

Just to draw a parallel without being past political at all, things

Richard Ballam:

are very much like trade unions.

Richard Ballam:

My, my dad, when he started work in 1959, um, joined the union because it was in

Richard Ballam:

those days you had the, the closed shop.

Richard Ballam:

And for the benefits of younger people who have never heard of it, in order

Richard Ballam:

to do certain jobs, you had to be a member of a particularly union.

Richard Ballam:

Otherwise you weren't even allowed in the building.

Richard Ballam:

And that situation persisted well, well through mostly his working

Richard Ballam:

life, even after it'd been bound because these things just carried on.

Richard Ballam:

Um, and whenever we went to union brunch meetings where you had to go and pay

Richard Ballam:

your Jews, you have a line of people, men turn all men in those, there's

Richard Ballam:

turn up to pay the pay the pay the Jews, and disappearing with just a very

Richard Ballam:

tiny number of people who are actually interested in the business of the union.

Richard Ballam:

And those people tend to ended up being so without me, past political, but

Richard Ballam:

ended up being hard left activists.

Richard Ballam:

So you had a, you had a leadership that was completely detached from the.

Richard Ballam:

Membership and I think pre lev it, that's pretty much what happens to the

Richard Ballam:

R c s, not not any political sense, but we've just completely lost touch.

Richard Ballam:

So I can see people looking despair thinking, why do I bother?

Richard Ballam:

You know, and, and bear in mind the work and that's it.

Richard Ballam:

You know, it's

Marion Ellis:

the, yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And bear in mind, Richard, you know, we've all gone through a global pandemic Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

Where life has changed.

Marion Ellis:

Um, you know, yes.

Marion Ellis:

We've gone through the whole Levitt inquiry and everything, and that's

Marion Ellis:

quite emotional for a lot of us.

Marion Ellis:

It is hard for us to become our i c s members and, and, and chartered.

Marion Ellis:

Um, you know, we've gotta look at the, you know, got Brexit here in the uk, you

Marion Ellis:

know, there's a whole landscape that's lying on top of, um, of all of this.

Marion Ellis:

But I think you raise an important point that I've heard other surveyors

Marion Ellis:

talk about over the years is you've got our ICS as a regulator, and

Marion Ellis:

then you've got the membership side.

Marion Ellis:

And it's like, you know, it's like being the boss of a team.

Marion Ellis:

But wanna be your friend at the same time.

Marion Ellis:

And it's like, you have that push me, pull me conflict.

Marion Ellis:

It's not a conflict, you know, um, situation.

Marion Ellis:

And that gets quite confusing over, well, you know, am I your mate?

Marion Ellis:

We're all in this together, but all of a sudden I'm not and

Marion Ellis:

you're, you're regulating me.

Marion Ellis:

And maybe, I don't know, maybe it's the case that's as far as

Marion Ellis:

it has gone, you know, after 154 years or whatever it is now.

Marion Ellis:

And, and maybe that's a time for a, for a refresh.

Marion Ellis:

Um, we had a couple of questions come up, um, in the hub, um, um, earlier

Marion Ellis:

on, and that was one of them is, you know, how do we feel about this sort

Marion Ellis:

of regulation part on the member side?

Marion Ellis:

Um, and so in, be interested in your, in your thoughts on that.

Marion Ellis:

You know, I mean, how, how do we engage local.

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, think with the regional boards with with new me.

Jonathan Milner:

They've been repopulated recently.

Jonathan Milner:

Quite a few of them have grow in, they're, they're trying to get more involvement.

Jonathan Milner:

I think the decentralization, um, the local boards and local events,

Jonathan Milner:

being able to hold onto more of the income that they generate.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, locally people are looking at having local networks.

Jonathan Milner:

They want networking events and, and local c p D.

Jonathan Milner:

So I think getting them at the local level, whether local boards

Jonathan Milner:

are appointed, whether that should be another election process.

Jonathan Milner:

Then work your way through the election process that you're elected to a

Jonathan Milner:

regional board and then the governing council comes from the regional boards

Jonathan Milner:

may get more involvement cause you get to know who your candidate is.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, but I think that using, using the local.

Jonathan Milner:

C p d and networking events is the way to interface along with

Jonathan Milner:

the professional group panels that will then feed into that.

Jonathan Milner:

So, uh, residential, um, is, is this, this kind of the way that I felt is

Jonathan Milner:

that I'm, I'm in a boardroom with people who are MDs of companies who are used

Jonathan Milner:

to their, their week is, is meetings.

Jonathan Milner:

They're used to that boardroom.

Jonathan Milner:

I had imposter syndrome going into that.

Jonathan Milner:

It's, I'm used to carrying my ladders around in my damp meter and now I'm there

Jonathan Milner:

with MD of multimillion pound company and we're supposed to be on a con.

Jonathan Milner:

Comparative there in, in our discretion and in our argument and our, our thoughts.

Jonathan Milner:

So the imposter syndrome was a big thing.

Jonathan Milner:

And is that more ingrained in residential survey?

Jonathan Milner:

They, they like to get out and about.

Jonathan Milner:

They are quite in SL what they do because we work from home.

Jonathan Milner:

We get in our car, we're off to our 1, 2, 3, 6 houses a day, however we do it.

Jonathan Milner:

And then we come back and we work in front of a computer.

Jonathan Milner:

Is is that training the skills that are needed to then be non-exec

Marion Ellis:

board ready and I that Yeah, that, and that's what I know we've

Marion Ellis:

talked about, uh, uh, in the past is you've got such a diverse range of people

Marion Ellis:

who work in the built environment doing all of these different things, you know?

Marion Ellis:

But if you've never sat at a desk and worked all day and done that

Marion Ellis:

kind of work and never been out all day, They're, they're very different.

Marion Ellis:

I think there's a huge, um, neurodiversity difference there too,

Marion Ellis:

in terms of, you know, whether you are diagnosed with anything or not.

Marion Ellis:

Just in the way that we approach, in the way that we, we work.

Marion Ellis:

Um, and there's gotta be a way to bring, to bring people together.

Marion Ellis:

You talk about the regions and something that comes, you know, made

Marion Ellis:

me think is, well, I work nationally, internationally, even from my spare room.

Marion Ellis:

Um, regional networks don't necessarily work quite well for me.

Marion Ellis:

You know, one of the questions we got asked, um, was about

Marion Ellis:

online networks and, and forums.

Marion Ellis:

Um, you know, very flattering that people love or hate the, the surveyor hub.

Marion Ellis:

Um, but you know, there used to be LinkedIn groups for, for our ICS members.

Marion Ellis:

Uh, now we've.

Marion Ellis:

I think a combination of the YaMma, which I think is being wound down

Marion Ellis:

and the my R I C s communities.

Marion Ellis:

Um, perhaps I can ask Youk.

Marion Ellis:

Richard, are you involved in the My communities?

Marion Ellis:

Do you get, you know, in terms of the online world, do you think r i

Marion Ellis:

s needs to do something more there?

Richard Ballam:

It needs to do something?

Richard Ballam:

I, I, I've been onto my Rs cs, uh, only in the last few days actually.

Richard Ballam:

Uh, firstly cause I didn't even know the thing was there.

Richard Ballam:

Um, which again is shows a degree of lack of communication from the Rs cs.

Richard Ballam:

Um, uh, someone points it out to me, said, you know, get, get

Richard Ballam:

on this thing and it's okay.

Richard Ballam:

I, I do most of my networking through LinkedIn.

Richard Ballam:

Um, and it, it is quite difficult to have a top-down solution to this

Richard Ballam:

because we networks form organically.

Richard Ballam:

Um, I'm past the group that, uh, via WhatsApp that deals with, um,

Richard Ballam:

share best practice on claims.

Richard Ballam:

And so on.

Richard Ballam:

But that's something that's absolutely under the radar as far as RS is concerned.

Richard Ballam:

And I think there's been a big fear of giving something the official, the

Richard Ballam:

official imprints, because it might be deemed as official advice and actually

Richard Ballam:

just phase talking to one another.

Marion Ellis:

Um, and that's where the survey hub came from, you know,

Marion Ellis:

is not trying to teach you anything, bad habits, maybe not trying to

Marion Ellis:

teach you anything, but sometimes it's just nice to have a chat, laugh

Marion Ellis:

about something you've seen or done.

Marion Ellis:

And it's that human membership side.

Marion Ellis:

Um, you know, we had a, one of our, our most engaged posts at the start was

Marion Ellis:

to do this fat cat that was sat on a, on a sofa, you know, and yeah, people

Marion Ellis:

were making jokes about it, but you can't see a regulator, a professional

Marion Ellis:

membership body doing that and arguably should, uh, should they do that?

Marion Ellis:

Is it right for them to, to do that?

Marion Ellis:

Clearly it's not professional, but it doesn't mean it's unprofessional for

Marion Ellis:

me, it comes back to empowering members.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And saying members, you know, you manage your budget and sort out your

Marion Ellis:

regional group, you know, you set up a online forum and manage it because you

Marion Ellis:

can, you know, to quote Kevin Costa, you can build it and he will come,

Marion Ellis:

um, build the dreams for those, uh, youngsters who have no idea who that is.

Marion Ellis:

Um, you know, and you can build all the tech you like, but nobody's gonna

Marion Ellis:

use it if they don't know where it is and it's not engaging enough, you know?

Marion Ellis:

And there's gonna be a reason and a, and a purpose.

Marion Ellis:

Jonathan, have you got any thoughts on that?

Marion Ellis:

I think

Jonathan Milner:

a certain amount of it needs to be left

Jonathan Milner:

to the free market as well.

Jonathan Milner:

With what, with what you've done, with the whole, it's a great, um,

Jonathan Milner:

platform for, especially for students.

Jonathan Milner:

If, if the R I Cs were to come along now and say, you've, you've done a great

Jonathan Milner:

platform here, we're just gonna copy it.

Jonathan Milner:

But put an r i c s brand on it, I don't think that would be well received.

Jonathan Milner:

And I think that, um, A students, would they go onto an official r i c

Jonathan Milner:

S platform and post, I've seen this crack here, I dunno what to make of it.

Jonathan Milner:

If they're going through their apc, would they be like, I'm, I'm, I'm,

Jonathan Milner:

this, I'm potentially compromising people thinking it might confide.

Jonathan Milner:

They,

Marion Ellis:

Jonathan, they worry about it.

Marion Ellis:

Lots of surveyors worry about it in the survey hub, which is why

Marion Ellis:

we have the anonymous function.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

You know, and the admins do a great job of taking some of them off and

Marion Ellis:

helping people or sign posting that Most of the hub don't, don't see.

Marion Ellis:

We do, we do an awful lot of that.

Marion Ellis:

Cause we recognize it's, uh, it's difficult, but we're

Marion Ellis:

not there to give advice.

Marion Ellis:

It's information, not not advice, but we still all need that support.

Marion Ellis:

And if we're not going back to the office after a day out of, you

Marion Ellis:

know, inspections and we haven't got to have that chat, that's a

Marion Ellis:

huge gap and a huge need, isn't it?

Marion Ellis:

That, that people need to feel, feel connected and r i c s, um, are

Marion Ellis:

welcome to come and join the hub.

Marion Ellis:

They, they, they don't, they never wanted to, you know,

Marion Ellis:

maybe things will, will change.

Marion Ellis:

And on that, what I would say, but anybody listening and I'll, um, you can go and

Marion Ellis:

search it or I'll put the link in the, uh, in the Facebook group is r i c s.

Marion Ellis:

A couple of weeks ago did have a podcast out the r i s podcast,

Marion Ellis:

if you didn't know they had one.

Marion Ellis:

Um, where they talk about the dangers of social media.

Marion Ellis:

And viewing it from a, a business point of view, if you work for a

Marion Ellis:

corporate, but also as a regulator and what they do and, uh, and don't do.

Marion Ellis:

And it's, and they sign post to further guidance there.

Marion Ellis:

So I would recommend, uh, having a look at that, it does make it quite difficult

Marion Ellis:

because how can we complain about the R I C S or how can we have those con,

Marion Ellis:

forthright conversations, you know, people go to where they feel they,

Marion Ellis:

they can to let off, let off steam.

Marion Ellis:

And they do it because they're, you know, they're, they're frustrated.

Marion Ellis:

Uh, at the end of the day.

Marion Ellis:

Community though, sorry.

Marion Ellis:

Community though isn't just being in a Facebook group or an online group.

Marion Ellis:

You know, community is the podcast.

Marion Ellis:

It's social media, it's just your WhatsApp group, Richard Community

Marion Ellis:

is wherever you find it, in whatever shape that works for each of us.

Marion Ellis:

Cuz we're all very different, you know.

Jonathan Milner:

I think where the r i c S could use technology better is,

Jonathan Milner:

is in the communication side of it.

Jonathan Milner:

It, it would be great if you could just WhatsApp the R I c s saying, I've

Jonathan Milner:

got a problem with my subs this year.

Jonathan Milner:

Can somebody contact me?

Jonathan Milner:

And it was directed that instead of spending absolute hours trying to

Jonathan Milner:

find out who is that you speak to and actually get through to them.

Jonathan Milner:

I think that from the comms, the messaging side of it, that should be

Jonathan Milner:

an easy, an easy way to communicate.

Jonathan Milner:

Cause that's the main problem that I, I come up against is,

Jonathan Milner:

is finding out who to speak to.

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, and, and I'm a member of gc so you would think that it would be, I would

Jonathan Milner:

have the, the, uh, the, the name of the person to talk to and it's, it's time

Jonathan Milner:

consuming so I can, I can fully appreciate what the average members come through

Jonathan Milner:

to, to get to where they need to get to.

Marion Ellis:

Can I, can I ask you both?

Marion Ellis:

You both work for larger firms?

Marion Ellis:

Um, and one of the, uh, criticisms probably from me has been in the past that

Marion Ellis:

we need to have diverse working groups, committees, boards, you know, all of that.

Marion Ellis:

And that's not just in terms of color and gender, it's that cognitive diversity

Marion Ellis:

of, of age, you know, from the youngsters coming in, um, newbies, whatever stage.

Marion Ellis:

Um, people at the other end still feeling useful and, and relevant.

Marion Ellis:

Um, but also then size of business, class, background.

Marion Ellis:

You know, not everybody went to a public school.

Marion Ellis:

Some of us, you know, uh, can't afford a property.

Marion Ellis:

Even though we're working in residential, we're still renting.

Marion Ellis:

You know, I think there's a, a lot of, uh, misconceptions.

Marion Ellis:

And so that mix, you know, we all, we know that if we get the right mix of

Marion Ellis:

people, diverse people around the table, we have the best conversations and the

Marion Ellis:

best outcomes and the best decisions.

Marion Ellis:

Um, that last, cuz we've had that debate.

Marion Ellis:

Um, if we don't have that, we are less likely to have it.

Marion Ellis:

And that, you know, that's, that's proven in all, all the, uh,

Marion Ellis:

different research that's out there.

Marion Ellis:

Um, how do we make that happen?

Marion Ellis:

Or, and what can you do if, cuz you're both from corporate ish

Marion Ellis:

backgrounds, um, appreciate, know the sizes of your, your company.

Marion Ellis:

We have no idea who the sort of seven or eight of the UK and Ireland people are.

Marion Ellis:

Um, and I guess that's the hesitation, isn't it, of well, who have we got now?

Marion Ellis:

Are they all gonna be middle-aged white men who work for corporates?

Marion Ellis:

And we just gonna backwards step, you know,

Jonathan Milner:

I think, sorry, Richard,

Richard Ballam:

up to you.

Richard Ballam:

So the, the, the, the short sentence to that is we, we don't know who's

Richard Ballam:

been appointed yet and whoever has been appointed, we, I was, will do

Richard Ballam:

our most to work with them because you can only move forward by collaboration

Richard Ballam:

and working together to achieve goals.

Richard Ballam:

It's, uh, you know, the old idea of, you know, going in and banging the table is.

Richard Ballam:

Looks great on the films, but doesn't work in practice.

Richard Ballam:

Um, in terms of corporate background, yes, and I, I spent,

Richard Ballam:

what, 13 years at Countrywide.

Richard Ballam:

I worked at sdl, which went from a sort of quite small SME to a, you know, great,

Richard Ballam:

a, a very, a very big successful firm.

Richard Ballam:

Um, not, not down to my efforts, down to DS a lot, lost all the peoples

Richard Ballam:

and see, I certainly after I left, um, but now, I mean, the job I'm

Richard Ballam:

in now, I'm working with, I mean, almost everyone I work with is, is

Richard Ballam:

working for one woman or one man firm.

Richard Ballam:

Um, some very aware of the challenges these people face.

Richard Ballam:

And it's, uh, and actually that, that's the real backbone of the industry

Richard Ballam:

is lots of small firms, whether it's just one man or one woman or you

Richard Ballam:

know, two or three person practice, this loads them all over the country.

Richard Ballam:

And that is the backbone of the industry.

Richard Ballam:

And yes, you serve in the country and so on are important.

Richard Ballam:

But they're just a part of a much wider mix.

Richard Ballam:

So I think just to be aware of the challenges that these firms face that are

Richard Ballam:

not the same as the corporate challenges.

Richard Ballam:

Mm-hmm.

Richard Ballam:

It's the whole thing of getting through regulation, regulation,

Richard Ballam:

renewal, getting your pi, getting your VI for new every year.

Richard Ballam:

It's, it's

Marion Ellis:

everything, isn't it?

Marion Ellis:

It's ev it's everything from, you know, going to paying to go to a

Marion Ellis:

conference and you get a discount if you've got three to five tickets.

Marion Ellis:

Um, you know, rather than working for yourself, it's having a voice.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

You know, having a, you know, at one point, I understand there was some

Marion Ellis:

kind of SM e hub, um, at the r I shift, but there's, there isn't any, anything

Marion Ellis:

like that as far as I can, I can, uh, see and I think from discussions

Marion Ellis:

a couple of years ago, I heard that, uh, micro, you know, one, one person

Marion Ellis:

bans or, or small businesses made up something like 60 to 70% of our i c s

Marion Ellis:

membership, you know, and so if they don't have that voice, that input or

Marion Ellis:

feel supported, You know, then, then we haven't got that, that around the table.

Marion Ellis:

What about you, Jonathan?

Marion Ellis:

Any thoughts on what we can do on that front?

Jonathan Milner:

Yeah, cause I think that the professional group panels, uh,

Jonathan Milner:

I'd like to see Bondman bands on that rather than, uh, the larger companies.

Jonathan Milner:

But I think the larger companies have also gotta bit represented cuz they, they

Jonathan Milner:

do bring something to the table as well.

Jonathan Milner:

They, they probably interface with lenders more than what their SMEs do.

Jonathan Milner:

And that makes it quite a bit of the, the residential market,

Jonathan Milner:

the bo the lending side of it.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, the policy procedures, um, how they deal with their audit

Jonathan Milner:

could, could feed in there.

Jonathan Milner:

They, they, they do have, they're a bit beast, so they have mechanisms

Jonathan Milner:

and procedures in place that SMEs could, could benefit from

Jonathan Milner:

learning from, uh, in that way.

Jonathan Milner:

But also SMEs are, are the cold face.

Jonathan Milner:

They are.

Jonathan Milner:

Out there doing business development as well as doing surveying.

Jonathan Milner:

So it, no one's putting food on their table apart from themselves

Jonathan Milner:

so they can learn from the, the how they are, uh, invented it as well.

Jonathan Milner:

They can move quicker than what the, the corporates can because they're probably

Jonathan Milner:

looking at share price rather than fee.

Jonathan Milner:

So

Marion Ellis:

it's, yeah, it's, you know, having that agility to react to

Marion Ellis:

market conditions, you know, safety changes as and when then thing happens.

Marion Ellis:

Um, one thing that does concern me, and I know many of the, the survey hub

Marion Ellis:

members is the home survey standard.

Marion Ellis:

Um, now, today, and again, I'll pop a link in, so there

Marion Ellis:

should be a recording available.

Marion Ellis:

I attended a home survey, standard webinar that r i c s ran.

Marion Ellis:

It was one hour's free formal C p D.

Marion Ellis:

So go and get it.

Marion Ellis:

Uh, and they'll talk about energy efficiency.

Marion Ellis:

Um, and so there's a couple of things.

Marion Ellis:

You know, their next review of it is gonna be, start in 2024, issued probably 2025.

Marion Ellis:

So that's five years, five years since it was first introduced.

Marion Ellis:

There was a bit of delay with it coming out, um, before the pandemic,

Marion Ellis:

but you know, that, that didn't help.

Marion Ellis:

Five years is a long time in terms of energy efficiency and given that we're

Marion Ellis:

in a climate crisis, um, in terms of the working group that was originally on

Marion Ellis:

it, that was arguably heavily weighted to one side, um, corporate side.

Marion Ellis:

Um, but also for me, that should be a live, um, active proactive

Marion Ellis:

group that, you know, we've got the standard out, but how are we testing

Marion Ellis:

that that is the right standard?

Marion Ellis:

And it comes back to the rules that we talked about before,

Marion Ellis:

just cuz we've got the rules, the rules and the standard there.

Marion Ellis:

How do we know they're the right rules if we're not tracking complaints

Marion Ellis:

and claims and survey quality?

Marion Ellis:

And just because you haven't got a claim doesn't mean you're any good.

Marion Ellis:

That's just luck that no one's taking it forward, you know?

Marion Ellis:

So, um, that then leads into, you know, the, the regulation side of things.

Marion Ellis:

Uh, but I know it's something that surveyors really worried about.

Marion Ellis:

You know, we've got this standard, they're minimum standards they could be seen to

Marion Ellis:

benefit corporates rather than, than SMEs.

Marion Ellis:

I mean, what, what do you want to bring to, given this is a residential seat, um,

Marion Ellis:

and this is not the, the, um, you know, the, uh, knowledge and practice group.

Marion Ellis:

There'll be a residential group there, uh, a setup.

Marion Ellis:

But what do you think needs to happen in terms of, of looking at

Marion Ellis:

that, in terms of the standard?

Marion Ellis:

And I think, you know, I'm not saying that anyone's doing anything

Marion Ellis:

wrong, it's just where it is now.

Marion Ellis:

It needs to, to move on.

Marion Ellis:

But there's the quality.

Marion Ellis:

You know, we've got surveyors who are, um, you know, not qualified or

Marion Ellis:

experienced enough doing level threes.

Marion Ellis:

They're minimum standards at the end of the day doesn't seem to be any regulatory.

Marion Ellis:

Audit or accountability, you know, just some thoughts on what are

Marion Ellis:

you gonna do to source it all out?

Marion Ellis:

Let's start with Richard.

Richard Ballam:

Um, I think it does start with regulation because at the

Richard Ballam:

moment, as you draw out onto the home service standards, if, if your report

Richard Ballam:

does not involve evaluation, there's no requirement for an audit facility.

Richard Ballam:

Um, if I wanted to be a cro, I could go and do four really bad level twos

Richard Ballam:

a day and make an absolute fortune.

Richard Ballam:

And the only thing that would catch me is customer complaints.

Richard Ballam:

Um, so we've gotta start somewhere by making, trying to find a way of

Richard Ballam:

making compulsory, have some of your work audited, however that's done.

Richard Ballam:

Even, even if it's a very light touch and swapping with a firm

Richard Ballam:

down the road or doing something.

Marion Ellis:

I mean, it doesn't have to be, yeah, it doesn't

Marion Ellis:

have to be R ics who does it?

Marion Ellis:

You know, there are firms out there that vet reports and, and audit

Marion Ellis:

reports, but it puts the onus on that there's at least a standards.

Marion Ellis:

So that's a.

Marion Ellis:

But then I guess the home survey standard's gotta be something

Marion Ellis:

you can measure against and it's very, very confusing.

Richard Ballam:

It, it is hard, but you, you can start off with the

Richard Ballam:

basic structure of the reports, which is description, condition, advice.

Richard Ballam:

You know, does it follow some sort of logical structure that the a, a

Richard Ballam:

reasonable reader can, can follow?

Richard Ballam:

Or is it just jumble of standard paragraphs?

Richard Ballam:

Because, you know, I, I love technology.

Richard Ballam:

I'm using the surveying technology for, for much of my career.

Richard Ballam:

And it's used well, it's fantastic.

Richard Ballam:

Used badly.

Richard Ballam:

I think it's very bad for the customer.

Richard Ballam:

And this is the thing that's been getting lost is the pub, the public advantage

Richard Ballam:

because residential surveying is, um, I had a friend who trans transitioned

Richard Ballam:

over from commercial civilian to residential and he said that residential

Richard Ballam:

is the hardest job he has ever done.

Richard Ballam:

In terms of the thought that goes into, into it, it's also highest duty of care.

Richard Ballam:

Yeah.

Richard Ballam:

Mrs.

Richard Ballam:

Patel.

Richard Ballam:

Cash a pension to buy a bungalow with limited means is probably one of the

Richard Ballam:

most vulnerable clients we ever have.

Richard Ballam:

And we've, getting our, getting our advice wrong can have massive consequences.

Richard Ballam:

And so I think there's gotta be some form of audit that really

Richard Ballam:

helps people skeptic, standard.

Richard Ballam:

And when say, well I don't mean, you know, bashing people over the

Richard Ballam:

stick saying you've got it wrong.

Richard Ballam:

Again, showing people how to get it right is the way around.

Richard Ballam:

And that feeds in to helping the more junior surveyors who are perhaps out

Richard Ballam:

the depth with the level three is and showing them how, what, you know

Richard Ballam:

what, this is what good looks like.

Richard Ballam:

Not saying you can, are you useless, you can't do it.

Richard Ballam:

It's gotta be showing people what, what good looks like.

Richard Ballam:

And, and I think that's gotta be part to be regulated firm.

Richard Ballam:

I think that's gotta be part of the process.

Richard Ballam:

Gotta make, make it past the process and that will also have the benefit.

Richard Ballam:

I think there's been a lot of debate about price cutting at moments

Richard Ballam:

and races, the bottom on fees.

Richard Ballam:

And in some respects, taking the profit outta doing it really

Richard Ballam:

badly is what answers that,

Marion Ellis:

you know, it, the, the price, um, things, uh, is

Marion Ellis:

interesting because there will always be somebody who, um, you know,

Marion Ellis:

will have the race to the bottom.

Marion Ellis:

You.

Marion Ellis:

That's economics.

Marion Ellis:

You can't, you can't stop.

Marion Ellis:

There's always somebody out there who'll do that, but you can't, the moment,

Marion Ellis:

it's very difficult for a consumer to compare one level two survey with another

Marion Ellis:

cuz it starts with a minimum standard rather, rather than a top standard.

Marion Ellis:

Correct.

Marion Ellis:

And surveyors are not great at marketing themselves demonstrating their worth.

Marion Ellis:

And I do a lot of client work with clients, uh, around that.

Marion Ellis:

Um, you know, I appear to be the only visible.

Marion Ellis:

Uh, surveyor on TikTok when given, you know, the, it's the first

Marion Ellis:

time buyers who are gonna get us through the next year and a half.

Marion Ellis:

Everybody should be on there, you know, the inquiries and things I get

Marion Ellis:

and I don't even do surveys anymore.

Marion Ellis:

Um, so, so, you know, so I think there's, there's that, but

Marion Ellis:

there's also the training side.

Marion Ellis:

You know, how do we tie in, because there's very little c p d

Marion Ellis:

and training available, you know, for surveyors to get from level

Marion Ellis:

two to level three, for example.

Marion Ellis:

You know, so you've got the audit and you've got a standard, oh, you haven't

Marion Ellis:

got an audit, you've just got a standard.

Marion Ellis:

You've gotta be able to measure against it, but there needs to be

Marion Ellis:

a facility to train people to get to it so they can afford to go

Marion Ellis:

and be as, as competent, you know?

Marion Ellis:

Any, any thoughts from you, Jonathan?

Jonathan Milner:

We got a bit proactive rather than reactive.

Jonathan Milner:

Cause it, it, it's the, the claims come in and then it's, uh, it's, it's

Jonathan Milner:

the monitoring that, but then there's like the vrs, there's, there's, there's

Jonathan Milner:

a cost usually involved into that.

Jonathan Milner:

So I, I like what you, what you kind of said there is about other people

Jonathan Milner:

doing it a bit like you, you're building control side of it, you know, have

Jonathan Milner:

sort of improved inspectors as such.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, that then creates potentially a, an income stream for some other firms.

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, I think an interface with, uh, a rep from the British insurer, the insurance

Jonathan Milner:

side, so we can get that data on where, The claims are hitting, uh, even if

Jonathan Milner:

it's just a, a basic X amount of these and they're defect related, these are

Jonathan Milner:

standard, uh, reporting standard related.

Jonathan Milner:

So fi from dispute resolution service as well, that we can put that on the

Jonathan Milner:

board and we can see where the issues are arising rather than waiting for the

Jonathan Milner:

court case to occur and then reacting.

Jonathan Milner:

We've gotta be on the front foot with that.

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, c p D wise in training, um, is there anything that really stops you

Jonathan Milner:

from doing the same c p D every year?

Jonathan Milner:

Um, and just the same subjects and just submitting that to get you 20 hours.

Jonathan Milner:

So there's an audit of that as well.

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, but whenever you mention audit, you mention monitoring, you, it, it

Jonathan Milner:

incurs a cost somewhere along the line, whether that's already in your suit or

Marion Ellis:

whether, yeah.

Marion Ellis:

But surveyors don't mind paying.

Marion Ellis:

They don't mind paying if it, they're getting what they need to.

Marion Ellis:

Do well, do they work, run their business.

Marion Ellis:

Um, you know, and the, you know, the value for money and the, that progressive

Marion Ellis:

learning, they don't un understand it.

Marion Ellis:

And unfortunately, coming back to the landscape that we're in, we were

Marion Ellis:

in the landscape of, everything's been a bit expensive with the R

Marion Ellis:

I C S over the last few years.

Marion Ellis:

It's gonna take a little while to get, to get back on, uh, on track.

Marion Ellis:

Um, so I don't, I, you know, yes, it's expensive, but there's

Marion Ellis:

a lot you can get for free.

Marion Ellis:

Um, but it's gotta have that, that progression.

Marion Ellis:

And most people wanna either progress or they wanna know

Marion Ellis:

that they're doing the job well.

Marion Ellis:

And the problem with not having any checks and balances with not having

Marion Ellis:

any data that's made available from all of the brokers, the insurers,

Marion Ellis:

the third party discreet resolution providers, the corporates who track

Marion Ellis:

a loss of the, be the, the data, having none of that available, even

Marion Ellis:

anonymized, um, means that you don't know what you're getting better at.

Marion Ellis:

And I see this, you know, right the way across the, you

Marion Ellis:

know, every type of surveyor.

Marion Ellis:

This is not, you know, I see good and bad reports of all different shapes and

Marion Ellis:

sizes, you know, corporates and SMEs.

Marion Ellis:

One, one bands, the, the whole lot.

Marion Ellis:

Um, and, and there's no feedback loop mechanism to say, you know, so, you know,

Marion Ellis:

when I, when I used to deal with claims, it would come in, the first thing they

Marion Ellis:

would say is, who did it and what was it?

Marion Ellis:

How do we get out of it?

Marion Ellis:

You then deal with it, and then there'd be a standard paragraph or a tweak to a

Marion Ellis:

form or something to prevent it happening.

Marion Ellis:

So there isn't that across the, the, the profession and the, the sector.

Marion Ellis:

But also what makes it even more difficult is there's never really

Marion Ellis:

one root cause of a complaint.

Marion Ellis:

You know, when people get to the point of complaining, it gets

Marion Ellis:

that far, they complain about 10 things that happened, including

Marion Ellis:

typos and you were 26 minutes late.

Marion Ellis:

Um, and that's that whole customer experience part of it.

Marion Ellis:

And the, the cause of the complaint can be different too.

Marion Ellis:

What you actually find out and what you, what you end up paying out for.

Marion Ellis:

And so they're complex things to try and try and explain.

Marion Ellis:

But for the last 15, 20 years, you know, the top reasons for complaints

Marion Ellis:

of claims will be, uh, structural movement cuz it's expensive.

Marion Ellis:

Um, dampness, uh, timber roofs and trees probably.

Marion Ellis:

And they haven't changed in, you know, and, and over the number of years.

Marion Ellis:

And because we don't know how many complaints surveyors are getting in

Marion Ellis:

terms of context, you know, um, is it one or 2% or is it 20% of their work?

Marion Ellis:

No, we, we just don't know.

Marion Ellis:

And I think that insight is gonna be important.

Marion Ellis:

So because how can you then improve a home survey standard?

Richard Ballam:

The other side of that though is just like the

Richard Ballam:

vrs that you mentioned earlier.

Richard Ballam:

I think we're almost at stage now where we need some form of

Richard Ballam:

licensing scheme for home surveys.

Richard Ballam:

Because interestingly, so if I

Marion Ellis:

can, if I could just say for those who dunno.

Marion Ellis:

So vrs is the value of registration scheme.

Marion Ellis:

Thank you.

Marion Ellis:

And to be a valuer, um, and to provide valuation device in the uk you have to

Marion Ellis:

be part of that every, in the rest of the world, you, you don't, but if you wanna do

Marion Ellis:

mortgage, uh, lending, that kind of thing, you have to have that and be registered.

Marion Ellis:

It's a separate scheme that runs alongside being a charter survey, doesn't it?

Marion Ellis:

Or, or member of our I c s.

Marion Ellis:

But

Richard Ballam:

I think we're at the stage where we need something

Richard Ballam:

for people doing home surveys.

Richard Ballam:

Now that's similar to the eyes at the moment as far as you understand the rules.

Richard Ballam:

Any chartered today can, can go and do a survey on a house.

Richard Ballam:

Cause regarded a simple job.

Richard Ballam:

So you can be chased Mineral today or a QS and go and do a level three survey.

Richard Ballam:

Um, and that's doesn't mean that you, you'll do a bad one, but there's

Richard Ballam:

no control over who does it and.

Richard Ballam:

Again, the difficulty, of course, is the minute you start getting a

Richard Ballam:

scheme, you, Jonathan already points out, you start adding costs again.

Richard Ballam:

And we already pay a lot for our membership, so we've

Richard Ballam:

gotta find a way of doing it.

Marion Ellis:

Then just following on for that, then cost, because I

Marion Ellis:

don't, you know, I don't, I I know exactly where you, you're coming from.

Marion Ellis:

You don't need, first of all, you don't need to be a member of the R

Marion Ellis:

I c S to do any kind of home survey.

Marion Ellis:

There are other memberships, uh, and things that available, so you

Marion Ellis:

can go out and, and, and do that.

Marion Ellis:

Um, are, are either of you familiar with the work of the

Marion Ellis:

home buying and selling group?

Marion Ellis:

Yes.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And so for, again, I'll write that down.

Marion Ellis:

I'll put a link to it in the, the group.

Marion Ellis:

Um, so that's a group across, party group that's been brought

Marion Ellis:

together by Kate Faulkner, um, who know, and she started it.

Marion Ellis:

So you got everything from removal men, lenders, conveyances, estate

Marion Ellis:

agents, surveys, the whole ultra banger are right the way through.

Marion Ellis:

Um, with the view two, how can we reduce the time it takes to buy

Marion Ellis:

and sell a property on average, I think it's like 22, 24 weeks, uh,

Marion Ellis:

at the moment, uh, here in the uk.

Marion Ellis:

Um, and there's a lot of duplication, you know, um, uh, copying of, you

Marion Ellis:

know, different ID for example, you know, to go to solicit and

Marion Ellis:

estate agents and, and everything.

Marion Ellis:

Um, and I don't hear a lot of surveying voices in there.

Marion Ellis:

I hear, you know, what the stage that they're at now is the technology is

Marion Ellis:

there, that there is the potential for a mortgage in principle as it's put onto the

Marion Ellis:

market, you know, um, with the data that's available that the banks have Right.

Marion Ellis:

Move has all the others.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And so home surveys at some point surely have to, to change.

Marion Ellis:

What are your thoughts on some of that, Richard?

Richard Ballam:

Well, it, it is perhaps the old home information pack, which

Richard Ballam:

I still think was a brilliant idea.

Richard Ballam:

Um, it just.

Richard Ballam:

Didn't work at the time because there were no way in there,

Richard Ballam:

enough licensed home inspectors.

Richard Ballam:

And

Richard Ballam:

I think there's a great little confidence to be brought to the

Richard Ballam:

market in having information upfront.

Richard Ballam:

Now, the story at the time of the home information pack, was that

Richard Ballam:

about third of properties fell through at the time, wasn't it?

Richard Ballam:

And that was because of, allegedly because of defects.

Richard Ballam:

Dumpings, all the, although in practice, as I'm sure it was something else,

Richard Ballam:

cuz people like to blame or change their mind on the suada rather than,

Richard Ballam:

because they just changed their mind.

Richard Ballam:

Um, but I think it, it would.

Richard Ballam:

Help matters to some degree.

Richard Ballam:

Um, the only difficulty is, is, is the recency of the report.

Richard Ballam:

Cause if something's been marked for six months, is it still in the

Richard Ballam:

condition in which it was reported?

Richard Ballam:

But the, I think there's potentially a lot of value under that premises.

Richard Ballam:

It just can't be a closed shop for surveyors because that, that was

Richard Ballam:

the problem at the time the old home information pack, was it had to be

Richard Ballam:

open not to license home inspectors.

Richard Ballam:

Cause there was simply wasn't enough charter surveyors that wanted to do it.

Richard Ballam:

But we can then market ourselves as being the best in the business

Richard Ballam:

or having greater experience.

Richard Ballam:

Jonathan?

Jonathan Milner:

Yeah, I'm aware of their own selling, uh, group.

Jonathan Milner:

I, I've got a meeting with them in a couple of weeks time, um,

Jonathan Milner:

with, um, sustainability panel where Andy Parking, who the MD of

Jonathan Milner:

Stromer, uh, is involved in that.

Jonathan Milner:

We're sort of looking at the conveys and the energy side of it.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, I, I think that there needs to be better communication between, um,

Jonathan Milner:

Our ICS surveying side of it, uh, and other organizations such as, uh, the

Jonathan Milner:

Law Society in maybe a paper for law society saying what we do as surveyors.

Jonathan Milner:

So, because I, I get a lot of PV Qs that come through, which are from

Jonathan Milner:

solicitor firms, asking surveyors to basically comment on things that are

Jonathan Milner:

outside the scope of their instruction.

Marion Ellis:

So these are post valuation queries?

Jonathan Milner:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jonathan Milner:

Sorry.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, and there's the kind of discussion about.

Jonathan Milner:

And estate agency valuation, being evaluation and, and a market appraisal.

Jonathan Milner:

I think that if the R I Cs, which is a say Property Mark, is let's,

Jonathan Milner:

let's educate our members on the, you, you do valuations and, uh, and

Jonathan Milner:

estate agencies a market appraisal.

Jonathan Milner:

And if you feed that into your customers, maybe we can get over this, this putting

Jonathan Milner:

together of, of what is is brought there.

Jonathan Milner:

And I think that if, if we communicate and collaborate with other organizations

Jonathan Milner:

in that way, we can help ease.

Jonathan Milner:

We're all, we're all a cog in a bigger machine.

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, and if that COG connects better with the next cog, um, yeah.

Jonathan Milner:

Does that

Marion Ellis:

work better?

Marion Ellis:

I see where you're coming from.

Marion Ellis:

But educating the public and the professional industry is like boiling

Marion Ellis:

the ocean and rounding up kittens.

Marion Ellis:

And after what, um, how long has the home Survey Home buyer's report been out?

Marion Ellis:

30 years, 35 years, something like that.

Marion Ellis:

Still bloody, don't know what it's, what it's called.

Marion Ellis:

The difference between evaluation and a survey.

Marion Ellis:

Um, well, yeah.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

People, people, people dunno.

Marion Ellis:

And I, I suppose it's the, that gets you so far, but we've gotta find a

Marion Ellis:

different way of this collaboration, this working together because, you know,

Marion Ellis:

educating a state agent, sorry, or, you know, conveyances or, or whoever,

Marion Ellis:

or educating surveyors, you know, it's another thing to do on our list, isn't it?

Marion Ellis:

And we've probably, you know, we need to find a way to engineer it out

Marion Ellis:

through the way that we, by working differently and not sticking to these

Marion Ellis:

rules of the way that we do the job.

Marion Ellis:

And the technology is there now going forward.

Marion Ellis:

I

Jonathan Milner:

mean, with the own buyers is it got to the point

Jonathan Milner:

where people were asking me for a home buyers instead of a, a building

Jonathan Milner:

survey or one of them survey things.

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, and then we decided to change 'em to levels one, two, and three so

Jonathan Milner:

that it would kinda, so what, what will happen to the brand home buyers?

Jonathan Milner:

I'm, I'm not sure whether it will

Marion Ellis:

die or, and I get, um, I sometimes hear some

Marion Ellis:

of the, um, newly qualified surveyors say, I'm doing an S C T.

Marion Ellis:

I'm like, no, you're not.

Marion Ellis:

You're doing evaluation.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

S C T is a surveyor's comparable tool from right move.

Marion Ellis:

It's a pro, it's a service, it's a product, it's a tool.

Marion Ellis:

You do an evaluation on that, uh, uh, on that tool.

Marion Ellis:

Um, uh, we talked a little bit about, you know, we've talked

Marion Ellis:

about sort of residential.

Marion Ellis:

Can I ask you about globally, you know, that I'm really curious about the gap

Marion Ellis:

and one thing that I, when I came onto governing council was mind blown was the

Marion Ellis:

gap between what goes on in the world.

Marion Ellis:

And what happened and how is that relatable to a surveyor

Marion Ellis:

on a wet Tuesday in Margate?

Marion Ellis:

Uh, we've talked about regional groups and getting involved and, and those

Marion Ellis:

things, but from a residential point of view, you know, what, what can we do?

Marion Ellis:

What can we learn to bring that, bring that together because

Marion Ellis:

properties property, surely.

Jonathan Milner:

Yeah.

Jonathan Milner:

That was one of the things that I, I had regarding the residential global strategy

Jonathan Milner:

seat is, is from a a, um, an a non exec kind of un renumerated, not a full-time

Jonathan Milner:

role, how are you supposed to connect with what the housing market is in Cape

Jonathan Milner:

Town LA on a global to that point, and I don't think we we're quite insularly.

Jonathan Milner:

Now we look at just our.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, I don't, I don't really, we, we know that there's a different market

Jonathan Milner:

in Scotland, uh, how they operate.

Jonathan Milner:

We know that the real estate market, uh, realtors in America operate

Jonathan Milner:

differently, but that's about as far as we really go, uh, or I do, uh,

Jonathan Milner:

in knowing how the rest of the world operate there, their residential market.

Marion Ellis:

And, and I think, I think actually within

Marion Ellis:

the UK we are very regional.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

You know, although, you know, we've got a, a standard and a way of, of

Marion Ellis:

doing things, you know, just as a, as a society in the uk we're very, we operate

Marion Ellis:

differently, you know, sort of regionally in the way that things are done.

Marion Ellis:

Don't grasp me what a bread roll is, or a bomb or a bun or whatever.

Marion Ellis:

You know, you get the, get all sorts of uh, uh, answers.

Marion Ellis:

Uh, what about you, Richard, in terms of this, this gap and are

Marion Ellis:

making it relevant to everybody?

Marion Ellis:

Well, I think

Richard Ballam:

past the global reach, I know the global agendas

Richard Ballam:

for criticism over the years, but.

Richard Ballam:

From a purely selfish point of view, if you wanted to go and work overseas,

Richard Ballam:

be able to take your qualification with you is and do something.

Richard Ballam:

It's fantastic.

Richard Ballam:

So if the QS is, wants to go and build airports in the Middle East

Richard Ballam:

or things like that, it's the RRCs a fantastic brand to have behind us.

Richard Ballam:

Um, and you've got a groups like to go over, over in Europe, which is the

Richard Ballam:

European group of violation, uh, so, um, appraisers or whatever it's called

Richard Ballam:

that's behind the International Valuation Standards, which is behind the Red Book.

Richard Ballam:

So we're almost having bits of the red book written for overseas.

Richard Ballam:

And if we are not around the table involved in that, um, it's, I think

Richard Ballam:

the global reach is really important.

Richard Ballam:

And the same with the International Property Measurement Standards, which

Richard Ballam:

everyone sort of looks at through in the bin, but the whole principle of

Richard Ballam:

measuring the flat in London or flat in Moscow, it should be you doing

Richard Ballam:

the same task, even if your local reporting standards might differ up.

Richard Ballam:

So the, the R So think that has a lot to do worldwide and to

Richard Ballam:

learn from other organizations worldwide about what we can do here.

Marion Ellis:

I think participating the relevance though, isn't it?

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

You know, so, you know, when we talk about R I C S and, you know, being

Marion Ellis:

independently regulated, that matters massively elsewhere in the world.

Marion Ellis:

You know, would they want to be involved with an organization that, you know, the

Marion Ellis:

British government of whoever the prime minister is this week, um, you know, will,

Marion Ellis:

will, it will be heavily involved with, you know, we, we, you know, we're part of

Marion Ellis:

a bigger world, a bigger economy and, and how things works on the valuation side.

Marion Ellis:

I, I certainly see that, um, in terms of, uh, uh, residential, you know, I,

Marion Ellis:

I'm sorry, of the measurement side.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah, but I get that too.

Marion Ellis:

The, uh, I P M S, but then again, the landscape that we've got is, you

Marion Ellis:

know, we talk about feet and inches.

Marion Ellis:

And centimeters of meters depending on, uh, pints and liters depending

Marion Ellis:

on what we're drinking, doing, walking, traveling or, or whatever.

Marion Ellis:

Um, and it's all of these, these differences.

Marion Ellis:

And so it makes it very complex to say, get rid of all of that, which is part

Marion Ellis:

of your cultural identity to have pints.

Marion Ellis:

We're doing it, we're doing it, uh, this way.

Marion Ellis:

Um, and so maybe the answer is to embrace what we have and to find, you

Marion Ellis:

know, it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Marion Ellis:

But to try and marry together the learnings that we have elsewhere in the

Marion Ellis:

world and the lungs we have regionally in Yorkshire and Cornwall and South

Marion Ellis:

London, you know, and what can we do to bring, to bring, bring that together.

Marion Ellis:

And I, I don't see that from a UK grassroots, you know, the stories

Marion Ellis:

and the things that people are doing.

Marion Ellis:

I don't see that happening.

Marion Ellis:

But I do see through modus the odd article.

Marion Ellis:

Telling me about water storage in beu, which is really interesting.

Marion Ellis:

Um, but how can we make it relevant, you know, and, and close that gap?

Marion Ellis:

What about you, Jonathan?

Marion Ellis:

Well,

Jonathan Milner:

I think the global agenda is something that

Jonathan Milner:

attracts people into the profession.

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, talking about Bermuda, I've got a friend who used to work in Barnsley

Jonathan Milner:

and now he's working in Bermuda.

Jonathan Milner:

So it makes, it makes the the profession attractive.

Jonathan Milner:

You, you can do that.

Jonathan Milner:

You, if, if, if he would, if, if he didn't have his R I C s,

Jonathan Milner:

he wouldn't have got the job.

Jonathan Milner:

He wouldn't have had the opportunity.

Jonathan Milner:

So I think that in at attracting people into, it's quite a big plus.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, but also then when you've got a global agenda, it's you've, you've got

Jonathan Milner:

a D E I issues as well is that what is societal norm in the UK may not be

Jonathan Milner:

in other, other parts of the world.

Jonathan Milner:

So it's okay dictating, this is gonna be our d e i procedures and policies here.

Jonathan Milner:

Is, is there's a whole mechanism of working out how that works in the

Jonathan Milner:

other countries around the world.

Jonathan Milner:

So it's not a, a straight tick, I don't think, but uh, I think, I think we have

Jonathan Milner:

to respect region, regions, and individual countries, but also there's a thread

Jonathan Milner:

of equality control that's gotta go through it, through that global agenda.

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, and uh, the control mechanisms that come with that.

Jonathan Milner:

So yeah, brand protection as well.

Jonathan Milner:

There's got to be a certain standard, we've got to be known

Jonathan Milner:

as, as that standard in, within the

Marion Ellis:

property industry.

Marion Ellis:

So, on standards.

Marion Ellis:

Let me then ask you about the different levels of membership because, uh,

Marion Ellis:

levels of me membership does not equate to qualification or competency.

Marion Ellis:

Um, you know, Yeah, we might qualify as a, as a chartered or a F R I C S or, or

Marion Ellis:

whatever, but that's not the same as the level of experience and qualifications

Marion Ellis:

academically that we, that we might have.

Marion Ellis:

Um, how do we, well, what are your feelings on that, particularly

Marion Ellis:

on the residential side, and what do you think needs to be done?

Marion Ellis:

Let's start with Richard.

Richard Ballam:

Um, there's been a lot of talk over the year since I

Richard Ballam:

saw Ricks came in and when was it?

Richard Ballam:

Is it nearly 10 years now, Maureen?

Richard Ballam:

It's, it's gotta be getting on for that, isn't

Marion Ellis:

it?

Marion Ellis:

Well, I know they, it's evolv, doesn't it?

Marion Ellis:

Cause it used to be tech Ricks 20 odd years ago and it's

Jonathan Milner:

evolved.

Jonathan Milner:

Yeah.

Jonathan Milner:

They were tech Ricks in 2006, 2007 time.

Jonathan Milner:

So yeah.

Jonathan Milner:

Have to,

Richard Ballam:

it's as a membership.

Richard Ballam:

Great's been around for a long time and my experience having worked with us at Rick

Richard Ballam:

today has trained a number of them and got a lot through their APC is some brilliant

Richard Ballam:

people at whatever stage of life have come to it because some have come later in life

Richard Ballam:

as a career change and some have come.

Richard Ballam:

From very different backgrounds.

Richard Ballam:

It's one of the things that's really driven the diversity in the profession.

Richard Ballam:

And one of the first things I ask myself, especially when you get someone sort

Richard Ballam:

of fairly green with a, you know, just, you know, brand new certificate is,

Richard Ballam:

was irony best when I was 28 years old.

Richard Ballam:

And the answer is definitely not.

Richard Ballam:

So even when you look at the sort of, you know, and I happen to beris yes,

Richard Ballam:

but the, the greenest asop Ricks who's got a certificate signed today, could,

Richard Ballam:

is it parity with me as a member of the institution and the can stand form

Richard Ballam:

me, tell me I'm wrong and we can talk about in a professional way because

Richard Ballam:

that's, that, that's the way it works.

Richard Ballam:

But I also think we've got a duty as MRIs I yesterday as to reach out hand

Richard Ballam:

and help them up in the profession as it were, and show 'em what blood

Richard Ballam:

looks like and say, look, you know, you can, you can do something else.

Richard Ballam:

And one of the dangers of our s specifically in

Richard Ballam:

residential is it's become.

Richard Ballam:

A bit of a call this sac in that within six months or a year of experience,

Richard Ballam:

the earning power is roughly power with the chartered surveyor and to get

Richard Ballam:

them to the next level to get chartered and say, so get your foot behind and

Richard Ballam:

say, come on, you've got to do this.

Richard Ballam:

You know, it's, it is quiet a challenge and again, holy out, hold out some

Richard Ballam:

hopes that, look, this, this getting chance is worth it because to me it's

Richard Ballam:

a stepping stone, not destination.

Richard Ballam:

Mm-hmm And the also so destination, sorry Mar, is when I think, you know,

Richard Ballam:

for someone who's perhaps got into it as say age 60, with the view of getting

Richard Ballam:

the last five years of working life out it, I can see the point of staying at

Richard Ballam:

asoc, but for everyone else think it's gotta be a stepping stone to charter

Richard Ballam:

journey and it's our duty to help them to it through it, not to keep it down.

Richard Ballam:

So I

Marion Ellis:

think so I think there are, things have gotten, have changed.

Marion Ellis:

I think it's gotten very muddied as to, you know, which

Marion Ellis:

is on the Antique Road show.

Marion Ellis:

They talk about better, best, and better best.

Marion Ellis:

Better best com is the little, oh, it's a little like test at the end, which is

Marion Ellis:

the, the, you know, the stepping stones.

Marion Ellis:

Um, and that's got quite muddied I think.

Marion Ellis:

And like you say, you know, you can be a, a whatever flavor surveyor, and

Marion Ellis:

if you think you can get PI and go out and do a, a level two on a period

Marion Ellis:

property, you can, you can go out and do it and you don't get, get sued.

Marion Ellis:

And I guess that's where the regulation, the accountability side

Marion Ellis:

will start to start to, uh, come in.

Marion Ellis:

But also the market's changed.

Marion Ellis:

And so, you know, if the market has changed and people aren't paying as

Marion Ellis:

much in terms of the worth of the product, you've either, you've then

Marion Ellis:

got to look at, well, how do you charge what you are worth and differentiate,

Marion Ellis:

which is what, you know, I mentioned before about the whole marketing side.

Marion Ellis:

Or do you then start to say, well actually there is one level or, or two levels.

Marion Ellis:

And start to look at it because it's got so, it got so muddied and

Marion Ellis:

now you can get, you know, through, through to fellowship, um, quite easy.

Marion Ellis:

I mean, it's not, it's not easy to get through, but if you can get people

Marion Ellis:

to sign off, you can get through, you know, within a couple of years.

Marion Ellis:

Um, and the, the problem is, you know, you've got some of us who've worked down

Marion Ellis:

hard for it to get where, and that's where you get these different levels of, of,

Marion Ellis:

of upset and, and feeling, uh, across it.

Marion Ellis:

Jonathan, any thoughts for you on, on that?

Jonathan Milner:

I think was, was good in, in bringing people from.

Jonathan Milner:

Different backgrounds through, into the, into the profession.

Jonathan Milner:

I think that the skills that they bring as well, sort of the more trade

Jonathan Milner:

side of it, you were bringing people that the state agency side where it

Jonathan Milner:

seems to be coming through the Assoc route, um, there's gotta be a definite

Jonathan Milner:

step up from Assoc to M R I C S.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, and that needs to be, and it is being looked at.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, but also then you, I can see where the argument, the discussion

Jonathan Milner:

is regarding parity on earnings and the fees that are paid.

Jonathan Milner:

So the OCS are 2 89 and MRI assesses at 5 39.

Jonathan Milner:

So I can see where the, the, the, there's an issue there that the

Jonathan Milner:

earnings are, the ASOC was brought in as a, from the tech R I C S to be

Jonathan Milner:

a sort of technical supporting role.

Jonathan Milner:

And that's not the case in residential.

Jonathan Milner:

I think that that needs to be a definite step, but also then a look at the fees.

Jonathan Milner:

I mean, you would think that the R I c S would want to get people

Jonathan Milner:

from the Assoc to the M R I Cs to pay the increased fee there.

Jonathan Milner:

Cause there's a, an income, uh, potential there.

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, F R I C s I think that there should be a time served element in that.

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, do people who see people going from SR M R I C S F R I Cs as though it's,

Jonathan Milner:

and then you're at the top, but what, what do you do then become president?

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, there's, you're at the top there of, of, of your three.

Jonathan Milner:

Um, so I think that there should be time served as well as the application process.

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, I think there should also be a, a time served element towards setting up in.

Jonathan Milner:

Uh, I think that, oh, I'm, I'm, I'm being generalized here.

Jonathan Milner:

There will be people that will go through the asoc who will be business management

Jonathan Milner:

consultants for 20 years and then done that, who will know how to run a business.

Jonathan Milner:

But generalization is, I think that for risk mitigation is that you say

Jonathan Milner:

two years, uh, from, from gaining their qualification to say up in business.

Jonathan Milner:

I know that the MRI says that would make you more attractive cause you have to be

Jonathan Milner:

judged on the day we award you all your letters you could set up in business.

Jonathan Milner:

So I, I I think that there needs to be an element of experience, cuz I think

Jonathan Milner:

there's, uh, that dunning Kruger effect where I think there's a lot of people that

Jonathan Milner:

are, uh, that what's crudely known is the amount of stupidity where they think they

Jonathan Milner:

know more than what they actually do.

Jonathan Milner:

And if they are then have pi, which allows them to practice.

Jonathan Milner:

Is, is there a, a, a tsunami of, of issues awaiting the profession?

Marion Ellis:

And is there, and that's cuz we don't know, cause we haven't got claims

Marion Ellis:

data to say actually is an ASOC who's just qualified and now working for themselves.

Marion Ellis:

You know, the first 12 months.

Marion Ellis:

Are they more of a risk than somebody you know, further down the line who's

Marion Ellis:

stuck on the ladders working for a corporate, you know, can't reduce

Marion Ellis:

his days cuz they won't let him, you know, where, where is the risk?

Marion Ellis:

We, we don't know.

Marion Ellis:

Uh, I think, I think support is definitely needed, uh, uh, across the board and

Marion Ellis:

the route to get, you know, if you haven't got a degree, you know, the,

Marion Ellis:

the hoops and things that you have to jump through to get from Assoc to M R

Marion Ellis:

I C S to get from level two to three.

Marion Ellis:

It doesn't exist, you know?

Marion Ellis:

And therefore, if it wants to happen, then our ICS needs to help empower

Marion Ellis:

and support others for it to happen.

Marion Ellis:

You know, and this is where we start to come round in circles over.

Marion Ellis:

This feels like a goddamn mess sometimes.

Marion Ellis:

I see where, where we're at.

Marion Ellis:

Um, it's been really good to talk, to talk to you both and, and, and

Marion Ellis:

thank you so much for your time.

Marion Ellis:

Just to finish off, tell me a bit about, tell me something that you'd

Marion Ellis:

really like surveyors to know.

Marion Ellis:

I would say that

Jonathan Milner:

the r I C S has good people, good members, good

Jonathan Milner:

members of staff that are wanting to progress the institution in the right

Jonathan Milner:

direction for the benefit of members.

Jonathan Milner:

It takes longer than we would all like, but there is a will to do that.

Jonathan Milner:

And I think that with the backing of membership, it can be achieved.

Jonathan Milner:

We can get it moving from being slow, almost moving from a sumo

Jonathan Milner:

to a ninja kind of organization.

Jonathan Milner:

We could.

Jonathan Milner:

There, there, there's, there's, there's people there that want, want it to happen.

Jonathan Milner:

Like, let's just get involved.

Jonathan Milner:

Is, is, is what we need

Marion Ellis:

to do.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

What about you Richard?

Richard Ballam:

Um, the biggest lesson I've learned of last, like couple of

Richard Ballam:

years is to not be afraid of regulation.

Richard Ballam:

I think most of us go, we've been through our creating my god's, God.

Richard Ballam:

What?

Richard Ballam:

Forget this wrong.

Richard Ballam:

What if we get that wrong?

Richard Ballam:

Someone's gonna tell me off.

Richard Ballam:

And the regulation team, um, oddly enough is that it is never nice when

Richard Ballam:

someone tells you you need to change something or do something better, but

Richard Ballam:

they're actually there to help us.

Richard Ballam:

And the rules, you go through Red Book, you look at VPs 3.1 and 3.4.

Richard Ballam:

The minimum contents, your terms minimum contents of reports.

Richard Ballam:

It's all laid out for us there.

Richard Ballam:

It's a boring document, but regulation is, is something that, that, that

Richard Ballam:

is there to help us stand out as being people we can trust and it's

Richard Ballam:

right back to the public interest.

Richard Ballam:

Argument is that if we get the right, if we can do our job in the right way

Richard Ballam:

and do use our skills in the right way, it's fantastic for everyone.

Richard Ballam:

Everyone wins.

Richard Ballam:

So

Marion Ellis:

they have, um, they have a, an audit as professional assurance

Marion Ellis:

support team, I think, don't they?

Marion Ellis:

That, that, that help people and Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

You, you saying that about auditor?

Marion Ellis:

Um, when I got, um, promoted job change to being an auditor, uh, at the

Marion Ellis:

corporate I worked at and we, I went to an event and uh, I didn't know anyone.

Marion Ellis:

It was like regional event and I just said, hi, I'm Mary,

Marion Ellis:

you know, I'm the new auditor.

Marion Ellis:

And literally they just disappeared.

Marion Ellis:

I was that by myself.

Marion Ellis:

It was like, you know when you get that, uh, washing up liquid and you put

Marion Ellis:

it in a bowl and it just goes, yeah.

Marion Ellis:

That's what it felt like.

Marion Ellis:

But yeah.

Marion Ellis:

Look, thank you guys for your time.

Marion Ellis:

I really appreciate it.

Marion Ellis:

Um, sorry that we couldn't go live into the group.

Marion Ellis:

Um, I'll, I'll share this out and I'm sure the Hubers will add some questions

Marion Ellis:

and I know you're in there, so don't be afraid to comment post, um, as well.

Marion Ellis:

But thanks again for your time.

Marion Ellis:

I really appreciate it.

Marion Ellis:

Thank you

Richard Ballam:

very much.

Richard Ballam:

Thank you

Jonathan Milner:

very much.

Marion Ellis:

Thanks for listening.

Marion Ellis:

I hope you found that a useful podcast, uh, and some insights into.

Marion Ellis:

Richard and Jonathan's views and a bit more about the the landscape of

Marion Ellis:

residential surveiling at the moment.

Marion Ellis:

If you have any questions, then please do get in touch and I'll see you next time.

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Marion Ellis

As a chartered surveyor with a background in defect and valuation claims, Marion has first-hand experience of why we make mistakes and what we need to do to support ourselves to prevent them. A Fellow member of the RICS and qualified customer experience professional, Marion is passionate about empowering people. At Love Surveying, she provides the support, coaching and networking surveyors and property professionals need to handle career challenges confidently and navigate the right business journey for them. Founder of The Surveyor Hub podcast and community Marion also supports surveyors in business through her coaching and mentoring programmes. Marion is an Ambassador for Lionheart.