Episode 106

106 Building a Career in Residential Surveying with Ian Bullock

Ian Bullock is an RICS Chartered Surveyor and Valuer and is Managing Director of Carpenter Surveyors, a practice specialising in all things residential property and real estate - RICS Survey & Valuation for private and secured lending clients and Expert Witness reports.

In this episode, we discuss Ian's career path, what made him decide to move from a corporate to an SME environment, the pros and cons of working for both, and his new business venture - Surventrix.

What we cover:

  • His career journey, starting on the Countrywide Surveyors TechRICS trainee program after university and then jointly running his business, Carpenter Surveyors.
  • Working in a corporate environment versus for an SME – pros and cons.
  • Why Ian decided to leave his corporate career to join an SME environment.
  • How to deal with complaints/claims
  • Reporting – how easy and accessible are surveyors’ reports?
  • Information sharing and support within the industry – what’s lacking
  • How Carpenter Surveyors evolved over the years
  • Talking about his new venture – Surventrix (Proptech) – a software solution for the surveying and finance sector designed by surveyors for surveyors.

Connect with Ian Bullock:

Connect with Marion:

Resources: 

The Surveyor Hub:

Transcript
Ian Bullock:

that's probably the best bit of advice I'd give to anyone.

Ian Bullock:

If I could look back 30 years and say, you know, how you start your

Ian Bullock:

career is the most important and valuable lesson we can all learn,

Ian Bullock:

and, you know, love them or hate them.

Ian Bullock:

Corporates have a massive part to playing that.

Ian Bullock:

Welcome to the Surveyor Hub Podcast.

Ian Bullock:

The Podcast for surveyors who just love what they do.

Ian Bullock:

I'm Marion Ellis, and in today's episode I catch up with Ian Bullock

Ian Bullock:

of Carpenter Surveyors chatting about all kinds of things from how he got

Ian Bullock:

started, how he feels about corporate surveying firms and the differences with

Ian Bullock:

smaller firms, working for yourself.

Ian Bullock:

But we also talk about complaints claims, and how he's developing his business

Ian Bullock:

into creating software specifically for surveyors on the launch of Surventrix

Ian Bullock:

So if you are out and about for the day or on your daily commute, listen

Ian Bullock:

in and don't forget to take a look at the show notes when you get a chance

Marion Ellis:

welcome to the podcast, Ian.

Marion Ellis:

Thank you for having me.

Marion Ellis:

We were just having a really good NASA before I pressed record.

Marion Ellis:

I could have, should have recorded all of that as well, wouldn't I?

Marion Ellis:

All the way in

Ian Bullock:

the in the beginning.

Ian Bullock:

Aren't we really?

Marion Ellis:

Good.

Marion Ellis:

Turns out we work for the same company, probably around the same time.

Marion Ellis:

Ian, introduce yourself to people listening who may not know who you.

Ian Bullock:

Yeah, sure.

Ian Bullock:

So I'm Ian Bullock.

Ian Bullock:

I run a an s m e, a residential survey valuation practice

Ian Bullock:

called Carpenter Surveyors.

Ian Bullock:

I've been doing the job for 25 ish years, I guess, give or take

Ian Bullock:

a bit longer than that maybe.

Ian Bullock:

Started life at Countrywide Surveyors we were just talking

Ian Bullock:

about straight Outta uni.

Ian Bullock:

Quite proud of the fact, interesting fact that I was one of the first,

Ian Bullock:

if not the first, to go on to the Countrywide Surveyors TechRICS

Ian Bullock:

trainee program at the time.

Ian Bullock:

So, ah, Yeah, so that's where I started.

Ian Bullock:

Straight over uni, straight into Countrywide

Ian Bullock:

I have to say it was one of the best things I could have ever done.

Ian Bullock:

Paul Cutbill brilliant man.

Ian Bullock:

I think he's retired now.

Ian Bullock:

Dare He has, yeah, him a while, but brilliant guy.

Ian Bullock:

But but yeah, he was responsible for heading up at the time I think industry

Ian Bullock:

leading sort of training program really.

Ian Bullock:

And let's say there was me and I think 19 others, there was an intake of about 20.

Ian Bullock:

It was like a Countrywide Surveyors University, effectively.

Ian Bullock:

So we went through that.

Ian Bullock:

We all came out of that with TechRICS status.

Ian Bullock:

And yeah, I was at Countrywide for a number of years.

Ian Bullock:

Loved it.

Ian Bullock:

Great company to work for.

Ian Bullock:

Very different at the time to what it is now, maybe, I don't know.

Ian Bullock:

But yeah, we used to do a lot of skilled lending work and

Ian Bullock:

level two surveys, et cetera.

Marion Ellis:

Interesting you saying about the, and I recall now why.

Marion Ellis:

We know each other or don't know each other from those days because I've joined

Marion Ellis:

Countrywide to get three months valuation experience so I could get get chartered.

Marion Ellis:

And I stayed there 15 years in the end, but I didn't get onto the tech course

Marion Ellis:

that just started because I was so far ahead and there was about eight or nine

Marion Ellis:

of us rouge M R I C S C candidates.

Marion Ellis:

And so we didn't get your training.

Marion Ellis:

We were just.

Marion Ellis:

Hung about in different,

Ian Bullock:

It's funny cause me and Sonya are based at country at the same time.

Ian Bullock:

She had the same desk.

Ian Bullock:

She was working through her MRICS, I was through the TechRICS and we used

Ian Bullock:

to joke cause I used to get such a good training package with all the equipment

Ian Bullock:

and stuff, and she'd sit there and said, I'm not getting any of this.

Ian Bullock:

No.

Ian Bullock:

did it the

Marion Ellis:

hard way.

Ian Bullock:

Absolutely.

Ian Bullock:

Absolutely.

Ian Bullock:

But no.

Ian Bullock:

Brilliant place to grow up really.

Ian Bullock:

I think, in terms of foundations into the job and the industry

Ian Bullock:

couldn't find any better and I'd do it all over again, quite frankly.

Ian Bullock:

I,

Marion Ellis:

yeah and I think, we talk about, the state of graduates and trainees

Marion Ellis:

and it has totally evolved and since our day, it's not an easy thing to go through.

Marion Ellis:

It's not an easy thing to find your first job.

Marion Ellis:

And I think there's.

Marion Ellis:

You know, I mean, I work for myself now and whilst I can be critical of corporate

Marion Ellis:

firms, I can be critical of SMEs as well.

Marion Ellis:

It's almost and we were just saying before we start a press record and

Marion Ellis:

it's like a rite of passage to work for different firms, and that's no bad thing.

Marion Ellis:

starting off working for a corporate on a trainee program like that get you

Marion Ellis:

to where you, you need to be there.

Marion Ellis:

There's some really supportive great people there.

Marion Ellis:

, you've just gotta think longer term.

Marion Ellis:

you might do it for a few years.

Marion Ellis:

What might you do next?

Marion Ellis:

It's okay to move around the different firms because they all have, and you're

Marion Ellis:

only ever as good as your team when you are line manager or regional manager.

Marion Ellis:

And those things change sometimes until such time you are ready to

Marion Ellis:

then go and work, work by yourself.

Marion Ellis:

So, yeah, I'd you.

Marion Ellis:

Whilst we can be critical of each other as we are, it's a really great learning

Marion Ellis:

ground to get the number of properties and the structured training and support.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

so, and it's not easy.

Marion Ellis:

It's not easy being

Ian Bullock:

a trainee.

Ian Bullock:

No, not at all.

Ian Bullock:

I think, I loved it and I would implore anybody to consider it.

Ian Bullock:

I think, we can all end up at the same destination working for ourselves

Ian Bullock:

if it's something we all aspire to.

Ian Bullock:

, but you know, it is a difficult job.

Ian Bullock:

It's a very technical job and I'm still learning now.

Ian Bullock:

I learn every day and I push myself to learn every day as we all do.

Ian Bullock:

That's just the nature of our industry.

Ian Bullock:

But it would've been a very scary world just hitting the ground,

Ian Bullock:

running on my own back then.

Ian Bullock:

I can see why people do it.

Ian Bullock:

everybody wants, work-life balance and flexibility.

Ian Bullock:

I get that.

Ian Bullock:

But yeah I'm one of the, From fans of the sort of corporate, sort of trainee

Ian Bullock:

programs and even now, I mean, the likes of SDL, they're doing some fantastic stuff

Ian Bullock:

with SAVA and the courses and training.

Ian Bullock:

It's been, yeah, brilliant.

Ian Bullock:

It's what the industry's always needed.

Ian Bullock:

And it's great to see, but yeah, I think it's something to work towards.

Ian Bullock:

So, Start off in a structured, supportive environment that has

Ian Bullock:

the capability and the funding and everything to get you through.

Ian Bullock:

And then you've always got the big wide world of surveying

Ian Bullock:

outside of that when you want to,

Marion Ellis:

so how did you end up setting up at your own business?

Marion Ellis:

What was your journey like?

Ian Bullock:

Yeah, it's an interesting one.

Ian Bullock:

I, ironically, I never set out to set up my own business.

Ian Bullock:

I'm one of these that's not driven with long-term aspirations to,

Ian Bullock:

conquer the surveying world as it were or anything like that.

Ian Bullock:

But I joined out at university into countrywide.

Ian Bullock:

I joined there.

Ian Bullock:

I knew I wanted to be a surveyor.

Ian Bullock:

That was it.

Ian Bullock:

it was a local practice, a local sort of office, and was brilliant.

Ian Bullock:

it was such a good old school environment of, you know, the admin team were sharing

Ian Bullock:

space with the surveying team, so you got to learn all sides of the business,

Ian Bullock:

you know, and I enjoyed my time there

Marion Ellis:

and I think, back then, there was like something like a

Marion Ellis:

hundred and seventy five, two hundred Countrywide offices across the country.

Marion Ellis:

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Marion Ellis:

And it, they really did feel like small local businesses, didn't they?

Marion Ellis:

And obviously technology came in and things changed.

Marion Ellis:

you said you always wanted to be a surveyor.

Marion Ellis:

We don't get many of those.

Marion Ellis:

People like you on the podcast.

Marion Ellis:

Ian a lot of people say I fell into it, but tell me, when did

Marion Ellis:

you first hear about surveying?

Ian Bullock:

I suppose saying I always wanted to be a

Ian Bullock:

surveyor, that's probably wrong.

Ian Bullock:

I mean, I didn't sort of from the age of five say, oh, I wanna be a surveyor.

Ian Bullock:

I was always interested in property.

Ian Bullock:

I love history anyway, and I was interested in buildings and property

Ian Bullock:

and I love geography at school.

Ian Bullock:

And I remember getting to.

Ian Bullock:

From a level stage, just finishing that and thinking,

Ian Bullock:

well, what do I really wanna do?

Ian Bullock:

I knew I loved something to do with land and geography and it was a choice in

Ian Bullock:

the end, bizarrely of geology, of all things or going into land administration.

Ian Bullock:

And I went down the land admin route and it was just a pathway that all

Ian Bullock:

sort of explored all property related.

Ian Bullock:

So you could go in whichever way I went through estate management.

Ian Bullock:

So it's kind of a pathway that I just, I thought, you know

Ian Bullock:

what, from very early on I.

Ian Bullock:

I can see the civilian role being something that's quite enjoyable.

Ian Bullock:

. So I suppose it wasn't really until sort of just finishing college and

Ian Bullock:

a levels at that point where I was like, right, that's what I want to do.

Ian Bullock:

But at the time it was quite straightforward.

Ian Bullock:

the big firms like Countrywide were doing milk rounds as they called them.

Ian Bullock:

going around all the universities actively recruiting and offering things

Ian Bullock:

like cars and shiny things like that.

Ian Bullock:

It was brilliant.

Ian Bullock:

But yes, it kind of just found me really in a way, I suppose, But

Ian Bullock:

but yeah, so, and I spent quite a lot of time at Countrywide.

Ian Bullock:

I loved it.

Ian Bullock:

And I wouldn't say I wanted to leave countrywide.

Ian Bullock:

It was just my old office manager at the time.

Ian Bullock:

He left the practice to set up an a state agency survey department.

Ian Bullock:

And it was an independent 15 office agency.

Ian Bullock:

And he said, look, we're setting up survey team.

Ian Bullock:

Would you like to come join us?

Ian Bullock:

And, the world's royster.

Ian Bullock:

I thought, you know what, that sounds like a good opportunity.

Ian Bullock:

It felt like a good new challenge, different direction.

Ian Bullock:

I felt as though.

Ian Bullock:

I hadn't exhausted all my options, got to sort of a good regional

Ian Bullock:

level surveyor and all those things at countrywide, but I just felt

Ian Bullock:

like, just wanted a new challenge.

Ian Bullock:

So, so I sort of jumped at that into the SM E world at that time, not knowing

Ian Bullock:

what the SME world was, obviously it was just, this is something different.

Ian Bullock:

It's a, a small fish in a big farm pond.

Ian Bullock:

And that was what sort of I found interesting cuz it was all about.

Ian Bullock:

Relationships and people and developing something other than just

Ian Bullock:

being looked after all the time.

Ian Bullock:

And the beautiful thing about working for, a corporate is you are handheld

Ian Bullock:

all the way through the process.

Ian Bullock:

You don't have to worry about anything.

Ian Bullock:

You wake up, you do jobs, you go home and it's, it is that security

Ian Bullock:

blanket that, a lot of people love.

Ian Bullock:

And I've got colleagues now you know, that's still there

Ian Bullock:

that's still at and Fantastic.

Ian Bullock:

Been there for like 40 years.

Marion Ellis:

And it's quite a sense of camaraderie.

Marion Ellis:

in terms of your regional team and being part of something and belonging,

Marion Ellis:

you can either engage with that or not.

Marion Ellis:

And and it is a a good thing and a bad feeling in many ways that we,

Marion Ellis:

when you work for a corporate, you don't see how much you are supported.

Marion Ellis:

it's a tough job.

Marion Ellis:

You work long hours and all of that, and we can have our gripes.

Marion Ellis:

You don't see how much you're actually supporting until you work

Marion Ellis:

for yourself and have to do it

Ian Bullock:

Absolutely.

Ian Bullock:

Yourself.

Ian Bullock:

Yeah, no, hence while I've got no hair left and it's all great.

Ian Bullock:

But yeah, no, I mean, even things like complaints, with the flip side of where

Ian Bullock:

I'm am now in my role, I deal with all the complaints as I'm getting.

Ian Bullock:

Yes, we get them.

Ian Bullock:

We're normal, we're human, everybody gets them.

Ian Bullock:

But you look back to Countrywide and think, well, if I ever saw a complaint,

Ian Bullock:

doesn't mean you didn't get Oh, I did.

Ian Bullock:

I

Marion Ellis:

was dealing with them . Yes,

Ian Bullock:

exactly.

Ian Bullock:

Yeah.

Ian Bullock:

You did it, you did them all.

Ian Bullock:

But no, that support system, and I think when you are just starting out,

Ian Bullock:

I can't stress how important that is.

Ian Bullock:

It is a tough world out there.

Ian Bullock:

Our job is not easy.

Ian Bullock:

and there's other things that I've sort of explored over the last few years, and one

Ian Bullock:

of them is it's a complaint working group.

Ian Bullock:

It's something that's just an informal thing that we'd like to Michael Holden

Ian Bullock:

and various other respected individuals.

Ian Bullock:

We just got together and we thought, look, this is something to chat through.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah,

Ian Bullock:

so, so obviously I'm just sitting on, it's only an informal thing.

Ian Bullock:

It's not anything formally, but there's a group of like-minded people

Ian Bullock:

and there's brilliant minds in there.

Ian Bullock:

Much more intelligent minds than me, we've just got together because as I

Ian Bullock:

think as an industry and touching on that point about the importance of having

Ian Bullock:

support system and that environment.

Ian Bullock:

as an SME and this sole practitioner, you just don't have it.

Ian Bullock:

It's all on you.

Ian Bullock:

So there's lots of people around the country and one of the things

Ian Bullock:

I think that isn't out there that is, is something that's really

Ian Bullock:

important is dealing with complaints.

Ian Bullock:

And it's how you I mean, we can all learn to deal with, customer

Ian Bullock:

service and developing technology and all those kind of wonderful

Ian Bullock:

things around running a business.

Ian Bullock:

But the reality is mistakes happen.

Ian Bullock:

We're all human, we make them.

Ian Bullock:

So it's how you deal with them.

Ian Bullock:

That's important.

Ian Bullock:

I suppose for my sins, there's other areas I've sort of delved into within

Ian Bullock:

surveying that have helped me to think, well, it'd be good to help pass that,

Ian Bullock:

not knowledge but sort of support system across to other people as well.

Ian Bullock:

And so that's an interesting one that I'm cur curious to

Ian Bullock:

explore more really, in a way.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And that's pushing all of my buttons in terms of, how you

Marion Ellis:

deal with complaints and claims.

Marion Ellis:

Because what I see.

Marion Ellis:

Is, a complaint comes in and the first thing people say is, who's to blame?

Marion Ellis:

What went wrong?

Marion Ellis:

Or, they're really defensive and we totally dehumanize it all.

Marion Ellis:

very often my experience with claims is that it's not all down to the

Marion Ellis:

surveyor's technical knowledge.

Marion Ellis:

And we worry about doing the right c p D and learning all the right things.

Marion Ellis:

And yes, you've got to be technically competent to do a job,

Marion Ellis:

but it's the support around it.

Marion Ellis:

And if you don't understand your client's worries, what they're

Marion Ellis:

anxious about, no matter how small.

Marion Ellis:

they become sort of little hooks, little things that just sort of catch you out and

Marion Ellis:

then all of a sudden it becomes a catalog of things that they're not happy with.

Marion Ellis:

And the problem with being in a corporate is as a surveyor, you can

Marion Ellis:

only control the bit that you do.

Marion Ellis:

You've got different departments looking after different parts

Marion Ellis:

of that whole customer journey.

Marion Ellis:

Whereas an s m e, you've got more control and oversight of it, but it

Marion Ellis:

doesn't mean you're any good at it.

Marion Ellis:

And so if people aren't doing C P D.

Marion Ellis:

understanding customers, relationships, making sure they understand what

Marion Ellis:

is actually in their T&C's and have them written properly by a lawyer,

Marion Ellis:

not just copy from someone else.

Marion Ellis:

Taking ownership of your reports and the content and the way

Marion Ellis:

that you want to write it.

Marion Ellis:

You've really gotta take ownership of it all.

Marion Ellis:

And then there's the handling of it and.

Marion Ellis:

people can be, you know, know, the, when you get a complaint or a claim

Marion Ellis:

through it is like a gut punch.

Marion Ellis:

, it's horrible cuz you've gone out to do a good job and for whatever

Marion Ellis:

reason, it hasn't happened.

Marion Ellis:

And the handling of it can be really critical.

Marion Ellis:

how it's closed down quickly, how you then get, get over it and you don't

Marion Ellis:

want things escalating to court.

Marion Ellis:

And ultimately they can, as we all know, But when we're looking

Marion Ellis:

at it ourselves or within a small business, you do not have perspective.

Marion Ellis:

you need to be able to step back or have support or help or be

Marion Ellis:

able to talk things through.

Marion Ellis:

And I think that's why as a profession, we've become very defensive.

Marion Ellis:

with lots of caveats in reports I see it sometimes on the surveyor hub.

Marion Ellis:

someone will inquire about something, a client, and, oh, don't touch that client.

Marion Ellis:

Don't go near them.

Marion Ellis:

and we become really restricted and make decisions based on fear when actually,

Marion Ellis:

you know, a lot of these big companies put money aside for future claims.

Marion Ellis:

they budget for it.

Marion Ellis:

And that's not about having.

Marion Ellis:

poor quality people in their team.

Marion Ellis:

It's about the reality of knowing the industry and the

Marion Ellis:

business that, that you're in.

Marion Ellis:

I think the thing I find found most though, I mean, it taught me, when

Marion Ellis:

I dealt with claims, it taught me a lot about customer experience and

Marion Ellis:

customer journey and all those things.

Marion Ellis:

And then the technical side, it taught me a lot about surveyors

Marion Ellis:

themselves as individuals.

Marion Ellis:

And that's why I coach and work with people now.

Marion Ellis:

And what would happen though is a claim would come through and I've dealt with

Marion Ellis:

them not just for corporates, with small firms and all different shapes and sizes.

Marion Ellis:

There is nothing, I've not seen Ian, but I would phone someone up and

Marion Ellis:

say looks like we got a problem.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And nine times out of 10, the reaction would be something like, I knew that one

Marion Ellis:

was gonna be a problem, or that vendor was a pain in the neck, or That was the day.

Marion Ellis:

My tablet broke down, the car broke down, something happened.

Marion Ellis:

And what they didn't do is trust their gut instinct to give themselves more

Marion Ellis:

time to double check something, to call something out, make it a building survey

Marion Ellis:

rather than a level two or whatever.

Marion Ellis:

And there's always that element of not trusting your.

Marion Ellis:

Your gut instinct because you're so focused on doing the job and getting it

Marion Ellis:

right and things and that's a really hard thing that I think only really comes with

Marion Ellis:

experience, which is why it's important for those qualifying and coming through

Marion Ellis:

that they do that within a safety net.

Ian Bullock:

Yeah, totally.

Ian Bullock:

Think that's probably the best bit of advice I'd give to anyone.

Ian Bullock:

If I back 30 years and say, how you start your career is the most

Ian Bullock:

important and valuable lesson we can all learn, and, love them or hate them.

Ian Bullock:

Corporates have a massive part to playing that.

Ian Bullock:

I think it's always good to have a good support, whether you're

Ian Bullock:

an sm a, whether you're a sole practitioner, or whether you choose

Ian Bullock:

to go down corporate, sort of start.

Ian Bullock:

You need a support system around you.

Ian Bullock:

It's a big lonely old job.

Ian Bullock:

Otherwise, and not just that, I've surrounded myself with good people.

Ian Bullock:

That's why we've done well.

Ian Bullock:

It's not that I'm amazing or I'm the best of that, I'm not.

Ian Bullock:

It's just the fact that I'm a good judge of people and I know how to

Ian Bullock:

place brilliant minds around me.

Ian Bullock:

And it's as simple as that really.

Ian Bullock:

But you need that support without it.

Ian Bullock:

I think things like running a business and complaints, there's so many things.

Ian Bullock:

Like I say, I'm still learning now and it's best part of 30 year career and it's.

Ian Bullock:

I look back and think, wow, that went quick.

Ian Bullock:

But you never stopped learning really.

Ian Bullock:

So yeah, but each their own, I mean, I'm sure people will have their own

Ian Bullock:

ideas and think, wow, that's fine.

Ian Bullock:

I can still do it, and fair place.

Ian Bullock:

Some people can, so,

Marion Ellis:

but just on the complaints and claims side of things,

Marion Ellis:

PI is a big problem for all of us.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And it's not getting any better really.

Marion Ellis:

, let's face it.

Marion Ellis:

What there isn't, and I understand why there isn't, is transparency over.

Marion Ellis:

You know what's going wrong.

Marion Ellis:

I'm sure many of us have attended conferences where insurers or whoever

Marion Ellis:

have talked and, over the last 25 years, I think the main reasons

Marion Ellis:

for claims are dampness, structural movement chimneys and roofs, and I don't

Marion Ellis:

think that's changed significantly.

Marion Ellis:

And yet we're still making the same mistakes as surveyors, for the last

Marion Ellis:

however many years really, on the whole.

Marion Ellis:

But we never get any feedback.

Marion Ellis:

We never get any feedback on.

Marion Ellis:

What the trends are, what we need to be aware of.

Marion Ellis:

And I have a particular gripe or issue I think with, we have a, the ombudsman,

Marion Ellis:

CEDR, those kind of bodies are RICS who, see things all the way through.

Marion Ellis:

And really, effectively it can become a cash cow because if we're

Marion Ellis:

paying for people to go through this process, I think it's right.

Marion Ellis:

It should be free at point of view for consumers actually to go through.

Marion Ellis:

But who's helping us get better?

Marion Ellis:

Because sometimes you look at these complaints and claims, and it's not

Marion Ellis:

just about the one defect that was missed.

Marion Ellis:

There's never ever just one thing, and they are so complex.

Marion Ellis:

In terms of process, the way that we do things, how you speak to clients,

Marion Ellis:

so many different triggers, but we don't have that loopback mechanism.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

to say, well this is how we all need to improve.

Marion Ellis:

These are the lessons learned.

Marion Ellis:

And we might get, use this paragraph , but that's about it.

Marion Ellis:

And therefore, how are we ever really as a whole ever gonna improve?

Ian Bullock:

Well, we're not, quite frankly

Marion Ellis:

That's not in the public advantage, is it?

Ian Bullock:

No yeah, I could go off all day about complaints and CEDR and

Ian Bullock:

processes and things, and I, I hear you.

Ian Bullock:

I we're on the same page for most of what you've just said.

Ian Bullock:

I mean, I think information sharing and feeding back in a constructive way, in

Ian Bullock:

a sensitive way I mean, PI is a big, I get quite passionate about PI because

Ian Bullock:

obviously I have to deal with, it happened for years and, I have views on that.

Ian Bullock:

But I think in terms of complaint, How the industry's ever gonna react.

Ian Bullock:

It's a bit like making this I dunno, I remember a quote that springs to mind.

Ian Bullock:

Something like that.

Ian Bullock:

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again.

Ian Bullock:

it's like, well, we're making all these same complaints, but

Ian Bullock:

nobody's sharing that information.

Ian Bullock:

But, and I say nobody, I mean, there's lots of different parties

Ian Bullock:

that could get together to do it.

Ian Bullock:

I'd love there again, let's not open cans of worms and things but the

Ian Bullock:

RICS would be lovely for them to feed back, top 10 complaints this year.

Ian Bullock:

top 10 areas for C P D this year.

Ian Bullock:

And that can be done in a way that nobody's given any sensitive information.

Ian Bullock:

Now, we've often talked about this on this group that we sit in and it's

Ian Bullock:

about trying to share information.

Ian Bullock:

we've, if you take comparables and valuations, for example, Look how good

Ian Bullock:

Rightmove, surveyors have created a data system that is the biggest data

Ian Bullock:

holder in the world that, look how good and accurate valuations are.

Ian Bullock:

Now because of that, well, why can't you plan the same test to

Ian Bullock:

complaint information, and have a database of complaints strip out all

Ian Bullock:

confidential sensitive information.

Ian Bullock:

What a brilliant resource that is for us to train and to educate, especially,

Ian Bullock:

new graduates into the profession.

Ian Bullock:

It's just, it's a no-brainer, but it's never happened and there

Ian Bullock:

doesn't seem anybody out there with an appetite to do it either.

Ian Bullock:

Well, I guess it's

Marion Ellis:

money, to, to fund these things.

Marion Ellis:

And, but the other thing is, as surveyors, we all have very different opinions.

Marion Ellis:

We do that that there is no one source of the truth.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

I dunno what the answer is to the joke of how many surveyors does

Marion Ellis:

it take to change a light bulb?

Marion Ellis:

If someone could message in, that would be great.

Marion Ellis:

But we're all different.

Marion Ellis:

And it is a sub, it is subjective, it's an opinion at the end of the

Marion Ellis:

day, And also we're looking at survey.

Marion Ellis:

We look at the technical part and the reporting part, we

Marion Ellis:

always exclude the service.

Marion Ellis:

And that's what really got me into customer experience was looking at, okay,

Marion Ellis:

well how can we prevent this to happen?

Marion Ellis:

What is the risk?

Marion Ellis:

What were the little quirks?

Marion Ellis:

And it's in the smallest of things like making sure your client does read the.

Marion Ellis:

cause it's not just, yeah, it's not just complaints and claims that go

Marion Ellis:

all the way through and that you pay out on, it's that it's a cost to your

Marion Ellis:

business to get any in, cuz you've gotta spend the admin time dealing with it.

Marion Ellis:

And if your client is not reading your report, that is your fault.

Marion Ellis:

There is a reason why, we need to think about accessibility,

Marion Ellis:

how easy we've made it.

Marion Ellis:

, did we actually tell the client anywhere to read the report?

Marion Ellis:

Did we speak to the client?

Marion Ellis:

Did we, you know, do we need to make it you know, here are

Marion Ellis:

the key highlights or whatever.

Marion Ellis:

And it's all of that customer journey stuff, and that's where I see.

Marion Ellis:

A lot of surveyors and particularly small firms, they don't spend time on their

Marion Ellis:

business working on it, understanding how it works, the kind of service they

Marion Ellis:

wanna give, but we all really wanna give a good quality report, which they are, but

Marion Ellis:

it'll do nothing for you if you haven't had that service that goes along what I

Marion Ellis:

used to do, which I'd recommend people.

Marion Ellis:

Do actually is for every complaint or claim or quirk or something that

Marion Ellis:

comes up in their business, they have like a risk log, which can just be a

Marion Ellis:

simple spreadsheet, but note down what happened, what was the trigger, what

Marion Ellis:

could be done to prevent it and how some sort of red, amber, green traffic

Marion Ellis:

light over, what have you changed?

Marion Ellis:

Is it possible to change If it's not, you accept it as a risk

Marion Ellis:

that this might happen again.

Marion Ellis:

, but at least you are understanding what's happening because it's not just people.

Marion Ellis:

Sometimes there's tech solutions that can, could make a difference as well,

Marion Ellis:

But you've gotta spend time on that.

Marion Ellis:

And some people will think that's not earning money.

Marion Ellis:

Cause we talk about fees.

Marion Ellis:

, but you wanna look at it as the whole, don't you?

Ian Bullock:

Yeah.

Ian Bullock:

I mean, that's the biggest trap people fall into of from

Ian Bullock:

an SMEs sole practitioner for those starting out on their own.

Ian Bullock:

It's the biggest trap everyone will fall into early on is that you get so

Ian Bullock:

entrapped in working in the business.

Ian Bullock:

You never work on it.

Ian Bullock:

you never work on identifying where you can improve things and developing that

Ian Bullock:

practice, and you get stuck in a ru I.

Ian Bullock:

State in the office, I guess.

Ian Bullock:

But it is, it's, and maybe it's not as easy as people think, we're all, we can

Ian Bullock:

be guilty of being brilliant surveyors, but rubbish at business development or

Ian Bullock:

marketing.

Ian Bullock:

I, I think so.

Ian Bullock:

And I think we totally underestimate it.

Ian Bullock:

there's a reason why we have copywriters and people who can design websites.

Ian Bullock:

Other people are experts in their own right.

Ian Bullock:

And yet that's everything.

Ian Bullock:

Can we, yeah.

Ian Bullock:

Yeah, exactly.

Ian Bullock:

and visibility Is a key thing.

Ian Bullock:

as we're recording this, we're talking about recession and what might happen

Ian Bullock:

to the market and interest rates and all of those things going on, and I'm

Ian Bullock:

seeing surveyors start to reach out to say, where do you get your work from?

Ian Bullock:

because, for the last couple of years, in the nicest way, we've had it handed

Ian Bullock:

on a plate and we've, and a lot of people have just taken what's in front of them.

Ian Bullock:

, so those that haven't worked on their brand and understood who their

Ian Bullock:

clients are and all of those things.

Ian Bullock:

We'll come a cropper, frankly.

Ian Bullock:

Yeah.

Ian Bullock:

It's it's a tricky at least be very worried right now.

Ian Bullock:

And it doesn't have to be.

Ian Bullock:

Yeah.

Ian Bullock:

No, I think that's the thing.

Ian Bullock:

I think, about just taking a moment and staying calm and working through it, but

Ian Bullock:

it is difficult, mean, I think the last few years, if we look at that I feel

Ian Bullock:

for anyone that's sort of set up and started up in the last couple of years

Ian Bullock:

because it's been a unique pressure.

Ian Bullock:

Things that have come together to create a, an unusual market that

Ian Bullock:

we'll never see again, in my opinion.

Ian Bullock:

, think what all is happening right now is we're returning back to normal.

Ian Bullock:

I mean, most people panic think, what the hell's going on?

Ian Bullock:

Just going back to normal interest rates are going to normal levels, products

Ian Bullock:

are going back to where they were.

Ian Bullock:

We've just had a very bizarre couple of years of covid and things that.

Ian Bullock:

I wouldn't say we'll never see that again cuz obviously you never say never.

Ian Bullock:

But this is just normality and what we should all be doing really, is

Ian Bullock:

just working on our businesses.

Ian Bullock:

Not just sitting there thinking, well thank you very much.

Ian Bullock:

There's another job and I'll work through that the way it goes.

Ian Bullock:

And onto next one.

Ian Bullock:

You've gotta be a bit more about you really to want to develop it.

Ian Bullock:

Otherwise, your best place to be is in a countrywide or an SDN or something

Ian Bullock:

like that, cuz it'll all be done.

Marion Ellis:

You mentioned moving, when you started up there was part

Marion Ellis:

of state agency in your business and sort of part parts surveying.

Marion Ellis:

How has your business evolved over the years?

Marion Ellis:

Do you still do a state agency as part of

Ian Bullock:

it or?

Ian Bullock:

No, so, so that was kind of, so starting at Countrywide the next

Ian Bullock:

step was into private practice at SM e with the agency side of things.

Ian Bullock:

And that wasn't the end really.

Ian Bullock:

That was kind of the beginning of carpenters really.

Ian Bullock:

I was there for a while.

Ian Bullock:

I reached a point where I thought, well, this kind of wasn't what I was expecting.

Ian Bullock:

It's not mine.

Ian Bullock:

And I think it was that light bulb moment then when I thought, you know what?

Ian Bullock:

I could do this.

Ian Bullock:

And it took me, what, 15 to 20 years to realize actually, yeah,

Ian Bullock:

I've got confidence and I've got skills and I can do this.

Ian Bullock:

I'm doing it for someone else.

Ian Bullock:

I can do it for me.

Ian Bullock:

So I just a chance conversation, a chance meeting with Mike Carpenter at the

Ian Bullock:

time, and just right place, right time.

Ian Bullock:

And, I met Mike.

Ian Bullock:

I have an awful lot.

Ian Bullock:

that I owe Mike, cuz he is just learned so much from him.

Ian Bullock:

And that was how I came back with carpenters.

Ian Bullock:

So it was Mike's business, so I didn't set up carpenters from scratch.

Ian Bullock:

I'm not gonna sit here and say, oh, look at me, my business.

Ian Bullock:

It's amazing.

Ian Bullock:

It wasn't longing.

Ian Bullock:

I just took it and made it my own.

Ian Bullock:

In that sense, it's a business that was established back in 1980s early eighties.

Ian Bullock:

What size business was.

Ian Bullock:

It was, it's an interesting one.

Ian Bullock:

Cause it and where obviously I'll run through.

Ian Bullock:

But back in the day it was a small business that worked

Ian Bullock:

up to couple of surveyors.

Ian Bullock:

a couple of surveys, a couple of admin.

Ian Bullock:

But it was linked at that time again.

Ian Bullock:

Cause I think going back a while, most survey practice.

Ian Bullock:

Were attached to agencies.

Ian Bullock:

there was a natural survey valuation element to everything.

Ian Bullock:

And it was one of those and of course at the time, business partnerships being

Ian Bullock:

what they are the agency side and the survey side, i e Mike being the survey

Ian Bullock:

side had very different visions and he parted companies set up Carpenters and a

Ian Bullock:

way he went did lots of different things.

Ian Bullock:

Very entrepreneurial man.

Ian Bullock:

Different businesses and different things.

Ian Bullock:

But yeah, he just reached a point where he thought, you know what?

Ian Bullock:

I wanna start planning for my retirement.

Ian Bullock:

and working that, that's where I kind of came into the fold.

Ian Bullock:

And, at the time then I joined, there was literally me, Mike,

Ian Bullock:

and Anne or the surveyor that, that was doing commercial work.

Ian Bullock:

It was a multidiscipline practice at that point.

Ian Bullock:

So, back in the days, again, the r c s have done some good things,

Ian Bullock:

, despite what people say about them.

Ian Bullock:

And one of those things is pushing people to.

Ian Bullock:

Be absolutely amazing at one thing or a few small things, rather than

Ian Bullock:

being all things to everybody.

Ian Bullock:

So at that point obviously we went through some structuring changes and things like

Ian Bullock:

that, but it was always with a plan to look one day this will be yours and you

Ian Bullock:

take it and develop it how you want.

Ian Bullock:

I was there for probably five, six years before I bought the BU business

Ian Bullock:

from Mike and at that time it was me the team of admin staff and it was

Ian Bullock:

very much, Mike was around as a mentor but not actively in the business

Ian Bullock:

and it was just organic, so I felt.

Ian Bullock:

Focus on what I know.

Ian Bullock:

Focus on what I'm good at.

Ian Bullock:

So the first thing I did was strip out the commercial element, because

Ian Bullock:

I don't know how to value offices and all those kind of things.

Ian Bullock:

Yeah.

Ian Bullock:

So, so it was restructured slightly.

Ian Bullock:

And it was organic.

Ian Bullock:

never said, right, this is it.

Ian Bullock:

I'm gonna start, growing a massive national firm.

Ian Bullock:

It was right.

Ian Bullock:

I know one or two people that would be great to work with.

Ian Bullock:

Anthony and Craig that had grown up Countrywide days,

Ian Bullock:

we'd all worked together.

Ian Bullock:

So Anthony came along, joined me, then Craig followed then Aiden, then Steven.

Ian Bullock:

It's just been an organic process and to the point where over the

Ian Bullock:

last several years we've never once gone on a recruitment drive.

Ian Bullock:

We've never pushed that.

Ian Bullock:

We've just thought, you know what, there's opportunities here

Ian Bullock:

to just keep organically growing.

Ian Bullock:

We're still a regional practice.

Ian Bullock:

We're not national.

Ian Bullock:

We're still have small fish in a big pond.

Ian Bullock:

I look at it, but you know, we're eight, nine surveyors.

Ian Bullock:

We're four or five sort of admin teams.

Ian Bullock:

So we're a big enough business to, to actually make a difference.

Ian Bullock:

But we're small enough to care and make that sort of personal side of

Ian Bullock:

the business, do something different,

Marion Ellis:

So, I think a business at that set of that size can be quite agile.

Marion Ellis:

when it comes to technology, when it comes to different ways of working

Marion Ellis:

the pros and cons with everything.

Marion Ellis:

Some interesting things here.

Marion Ellis:

One is it's really interesting that you moved into working with somebody.

Marion Ellis:

I get contacted a lot by surveyors who want to sell their business.

Marion Ellis:

I see a lot of surveyors advertising their business for sales, and I think

Marion Ellis:

who wants to buy that, particularly when some of them are just one man bands Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And they don't understand.

Marion Ellis:

What assets they have or what they can sell on.

Marion Ellis:

Sometimes there's partnerships and there's no adequate paperwork or

Marion Ellis:

agreements or anything in place cuz everyone's mates and that's how it,

Marion Ellis:

and all of a sudden it's got tricky.

Marion Ellis:

But also on the other hand, you've got, we talked.

Marion Ellis:

People wanted to work for themselves or of an aspiration

Marion Ellis:

to, to own their own businesses.

Marion Ellis:

They go and do it the hard way and start from scratch, cuz I guess the

Marion Ellis:

fear of taking on someone else's PI or whatever, but the, that's

Marion Ellis:

one thing that can be managed.

Marion Ellis:

But also having that mentorship, which you obviously got from

Marion Ellis:

Mike, It's absolutely invaluable.

Marion Ellis:

And we talked about support and if I think about the number of surveyors

Marion Ellis:

who, knees are thinking of Downing tools, there's loads of them.

Marion Ellis:

And secondly, I know they don't want to, they've just got dodgy knees

Marion Ellis:

And so there's definitely a model out there for an understanding that, building

Marion Ellis:

relationships and not being threatened by.

Ian Bullock:

It's, yeah, it's a big thing.

Ian Bullock:

And I can really relate to all of that.

Ian Bullock:

I mean, I think Mike, it's all about trust.

Ian Bullock:

And, once Mike knew me well enough to trust me, he was very open

Ian Bullock:

about his vision for retirement, his vision for the business.

Ian Bullock:

And all he really wanted at the end of the day was someone

Ian Bullock:

to do their own thing with it.

Ian Bullock:

It, like I say, it was such a good sort of feel about it all.

Ian Bullock:

There was no selfishness, there was no greed, there was no, well,

Ian Bullock:

this is mine and you can't do that.

Ian Bullock:

There was none of that.

Ian Bullock:

It was very much, very supportive.

Ian Bullock:

But I think if I was doing it all again now and I was looking to set up on my

Ian Bullock:

own, the first thing I'd be doing is going to those mics of the world and

Ian Bullock:

saying, Look, you might not be wanting to do it now, but why don't I come work

Ian Bullock:

for you with you until such time that you know, it's something that's an option.

Ian Bullock:

I mean, it's the next best thing really.

Ian Bullock:

Then going on your own.

Ian Bullock:

The last thing I would ever wanna do, and I'm quite a sociable person, so I

Ian Bullock:

wouldn't wanna work on my own anyway.

Ian Bullock:

I don't think so.

Ian Bullock:

I would always want people around me.

Ian Bullock:

But what better way to have a mentor and a support system?

Ian Bullock:

Again, no different to Countrywide just on a small basis.

Ian Bullock:

there is so many brilliant minds out there that have got such a good reputation.

Ian Bullock:

It's just them on their own.

Ian Bullock:

And it might be a small business, but what shame to see that disappear because if

Ian Bullock:

no one does that, it's just gone forever.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And the knowledge that you get, we could all think of characters from the past and

Marion Ellis:

you know, that knowledge just disappears.

Marion Ellis:

You know, and we need, but it's things.

Marion Ellis:

knowing the local areas, we think we know a local area, but you

Marion Ellis:

know, Adrian, there was a guy called Adrian in my old countrywide

Marion Ellis:

office, used to call him the Oracle.

Marion Ellis:

He knew everything.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

Literally when everything was built different things that

Marion Ellis:

happened in different areas.

Marion Ellis:

it was, and that was perhaps priceless, and having that transfer of of knowledge

Marion Ellis:

because, and it's not just the technical knowledge because that will always change.

Marion Ellis:

And that will always be readily accessible through c p d trading

Marion Ellis:

and various things, I guess.

Marion Ellis:

But it's that local knowledge and relationships and history

Marion Ellis:

and that makes a real difference.

Marion Ellis:

So where's your business heading now?

Ian Bullock:

Yeah.

Ian Bullock:

So, yeah, I'm an ideas sort of person.

Ian Bullock:

I think by nature I like to explore new challenges and have goals to work

Ian Bullock:

to and things like that, I guess.

Ian Bullock:

But in terms of business goals I never set out to build a business

Ian Bullock:

that could reach a million pound turnover or anything like that.

Ian Bullock:

But we've done all those things and it's strange when you get to a point

Ian Bullock:

where you think, well, I've done what I.

Ian Bullock:

To achieve.

Ian Bullock:

I've kind of achieved those sort of milestones.

Ian Bullock:

Where do we go now?

Ian Bullock:

And I'm always that, where do I go now, kind of person.

Ian Bullock:

I think where we've gone over the last year or two where we continue to go and

Ian Bullock:

what kind of excites me is I mean we can say often say it, but do we really

Ian Bullock:

mean it in terms of giving something back to the profession and trying to.

Ian Bullock:

Support and nurture other people.

Ian Bullock:

the last two surveyors that came into our practice, both Sava candidates

Ian Bullock:

that I admire completely because, these are candidates with life experience

Ian Bullock:

that have changed careers that are brilliant minds that have just took

Ian Bullock:

the time to say, you know what?

Ian Bullock:

I want a better life.

Ian Bullock:

I want a better.

Ian Bullock:

Job.

Ian Bullock:

I want something different.

Ian Bullock:

But I dunno how to get there.

Ian Bullock:

And they need a mentor and they need someone to give them a chance.

Ian Bullock:

And so Aiden, Steven, very much of that, I, last few years

Ian Bullock:

they've come into the practice.

Ian Bullock:

We've got two new guys coming on board in the new year of all times.

Ian Bullock:

People look at the moment, think.

Ian Bullock:

Why would you be recruiting?

Ian Bullock:

At the moment it's, look, we're just back to a normal market and, again, mentoring

Ian Bullock:

and training with two new server recruits.

Ian Bullock:

So

Marion Ellis:

Can I ask you about bringing, because they don't, they cost

Marion Ellis:

money when you get trainees in, into the business and, that puts a lot of people.

Marion Ellis:

People are like, but you, I guess you, you plan for that.

Marion Ellis:

It's what your business.

Ian Bullock:

Yeah, no, I mean, the thing is, it's I'm quite open about this, is

Ian Bullock:

that and, aid and Steve and Greg and Ryan, they will all tell you the same things.

Ian Bullock:

these are people that have already committed their own finances.

Ian Bullock:

They're already working.

Ian Bullock:

This is a I'm juggling all things family life, work life balance,

Ian Bullock:

whilst training to be a survey.

Ian Bullock:

What they really need and what a lot of these guys and girls need is

Ian Bullock:

just someone to give them mentor.

Ian Bullock:

Whilst on the go, as a firm, if you are a an S M E or a sole practitioner,

Ian Bullock:

even looking to grow, you don't need to commit to creating a job role.

Ian Bullock:

You don't need big salary budgets and things like that.

Ian Bullock:

You just need to offer mentoring, trained supporting and it just leads somewhere.

Ian Bullock:

So, in terms of costs, yes, there are costs but then probably not

Ian Bullock:

as big as people think, really.

Ian Bullock:

And it's not as scary as people think.

Ian Bullock:

And, I don't necessarily think that.

Ian Bullock:

Most cyber candidates I talk to are after.

Ian Bullock:

Really?

Ian Bullock:

They're not coming to you saying, well, I want a job.

Ian Bullock:

Give me a job.

Ian Bullock:

They're coming saying, I need experience.

Ian Bullock:

I want shattering, I want mentoring.

Ian Bullock:

That's free.

Ian Bullock:

That doesn't cost anybody anything.

Ian Bullock:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And there's, and it's the same with APC candidates sometimes,

Marion Ellis:

it's not that they're looking for a Counsellor and someone to help

Marion Ellis:

them write all of their application.

Marion Ellis:

Sometimes they just want the odd.

Marion Ellis:

Here and there, and and to build a relationship and understand more about,

Marion Ellis:

I guess, the life experience of what it's like because it's, you know, it's

Marion Ellis:

a, we don't just walk into people's homes, we walk into their lives as well.

Marion Ellis:

And we see it, we see it wa walks and all.

Marion Ellis:

I think what we all need to do is trainees and those that can mentors

Marion Ellis:

need to be better at asking what they specifically need, so saying, Hi, I am

Marion Ellis:

looking, I need a mentor in Birmingham.

Marion Ellis:

It's like Birmingham is huge.

Marion Ellis:

. What part of Birmingham?

Marion Ellis:

What kind of properties?

Marion Ellis:

when would you want this?

Marion Ellis:

Why do you want it, what's the background?

Marion Ellis:

a lady reached out to me the other day.

Marion Ellis:

She's doing her a p c, she was actually looking for commercial.

Marion Ellis:

Her business doesn't do that, and although she's got it covered in a her APC

Marion Ellis:

submission, she wanted to go out and do a.

Marion Ellis:

Measured surveys.

Marion Ellis:

And so she reached out to me to say, do you know anybody?

Marion Ellis:

And I just put in touch with a few people and hopefully she's fine.

Marion Ellis:

But some people get really, put off of, well, they're gonna take up my time.

Marion Ellis:

And I guess we need to think about reverse mentoring.

Marion Ellis:

We can learn a lot from students and trainees.

Marion Ellis:

. And like you said, we're always learning and I wonder if some surveyors are quite

Marion Ellis:

threatened by their knowledge or lack of.

Marion Ellis:

and that being shown, but we've gotta be o absolutely open

Ian Bullock:

to that.

Ian Bullock:

Yeah, I think so.

Ian Bullock:

I mean, it's a, it is a difficult one to train self, to be open-minded.

Ian Bullock:

I mean, I'm the first to say, our Sava guys, teach me things every day.

Ian Bullock:

I mean, I don't know.

Ian Bullock:

It all never, will never professed to and you never gonna be able to.

Ian Bullock:

So I think having some fresh minds and some support against

Ian Bullock:

that word, again, support, those mentors are there to support you.

Ian Bullock:

I mean, they'll very often happily collect keys help you with comparables

Ian Bullock:

saying silly, but hold tape, measure and things like that they'll happily

Ian Bullock:

get stuck in and, that's also,

Marion Ellis:

they'll do.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

But also they'll do other stuff like do research.

Marion Ellis:

know, find the latest, what,

Ian Bullock:

documents on whatever.

Ian Bullock:

Yeah.

Ian Bullock:

All the sort of desktop research, pre apps and all that sort of stuff.

Ian Bullock:

If anything, really I feel like every practice should have a new

Ian Bullock:

trainee that you are mentoring in it.

Ian Bullock:

Because if we don't again, it's that you are only ever gonna be stuck

Ian Bullock:

working in your business, not on it.

Ian Bullock:

What better way to help you work on your business to free up a bit of time?

Ian Bullock:

if you take one or two jobs a week where someone's.

Ian Bullock:

All of that sort of periphery stuff, your research, your desktop, your

Ian Bullock:

key collections, all those things.

Ian Bullock:

That's a few hours you've spent that week that, well, why not make a few calls to

Ian Bullock:

local contacts and develop your business, join a b and I club, whatever it might be.

Ian Bullock:

There's lots of things you can do, but yeah, just having those people around

Ian Bullock:

you to support you I, I don't understand why people would ever wanna work on

Ian Bullock:

their own, or quite frankly, I dunno.

Marion Ellis:

Well, If I think back, some days I just wanna be grumpy and not talk

Marion Ellis:

to anyone, . And, but most, I mean, I work by myself and that's why I do things like

Marion Ellis:

the podcast in the community because I'm on my own and I need that engagement, But

Marion Ellis:

there are some days when I just can't be asked and , I just wanna do my own thing.

Marion Ellis:

But you have to get, get over yourself.

Marion Ellis:

One thing I think is needed, and we talked about giving back to the industry

Marion Ellis:

and, in lots of different ways, is I think for students, trainees, mentees, we

Marion Ellis:

don't really know what good looks like.

Marion Ellis:

What does a good placement look like, what should happen.

Marion Ellis:

I worry about some trainees and students being taken advantage.

Marion Ellis:

In terms of working conditions, what they're sent out to do, health and safety.

Marion Ellis:

And another thing that that, that came to light when I was talking to someone

Marion Ellis:

a lit a little while ago when we sign these contracts, your first contract

Marion Ellis:

as a surveyor, when as a, employee is gonna be the biggest contract you've

Marion Ellis:

ever signed and no one supports you with it, you just sign it because

Marion Ellis:

it's a job and you're grateful for it.

Marion Ellis:

And no one gives you that, that support to.

Marion Ellis:

Let's just read through this.

Marion Ellis:

Oh, you're tied in for five years, or whatever.

Marion Ellis:

Oh, you've gotta work Sundays.

Marion Ellis:

We need to be able to support youngsters.

Marion Ellis:

I, say youngsters loosely cuz in residential, a lot of us are mature when

Marion Ellis:

we when we come in, but I think we don't always see what good looks like and that.

Marion Ellis:

Mentees as well.

Marion Ellis:

But it also helps others who might be thinking about taking somebody

Marion Ellis:

on say, well actually this is what you do and this is how it works and

Marion Ellis:

this is how I budget for it and this is what I've got back from it, in

Marion Ellis:

terms of the reverse mentoring side.

Marion Ellis:

So the more that we can share then the better.

Marion Ellis:

Before we just finish off, I wanna ask you about technology.

Marion Ellis:

Cause I know you've got a new venture that you've been working on.

Marion Ellis:

Tell me a bit more about.

Ian Bullock:

Yeah.

Ian Bullock:

Yeah, no, I'm happy to.

Ian Bullock:

So yes, Surventrix, it's an exciting new adventure, new challenge really for me.

Ian Bullock:

Again, I, I think as an industry PropTech is a word that's used almost every day.

Ian Bullock:

There's lots of some, there's lots of fantastic bits of kit out there.

Ian Bullock:

Some really good platforms, you we will all be familiar with 'em in terms of Go

Ian Bullock:

Reports and call Logic and various others.

Ian Bullock:

All do wonderful things.

Ian Bullock:

But in my opinion, at least for what that's worth, none of them do it all.

Ian Bullock:

none of them.

Ian Bullock:

There's not a single platform that does everything for everybody from start to

Ian Bullock:

finish, whether that's customer engagement at the front, whether that's report

Ian Bullock:

writing at the back, whether that's file directory in the middle, whether

Ian Bullock:

that's auditing, regulation, terms and conditions, all those kind of things.

Ian Bullock:

So what Surventrix is,, it's a business that.

Ian Bullock:

Myself and Ben, a about to launch really.

Ian Bullock:

So in a couple weeks time it's going live And yeah, we are quite

Ian Bullock:

excited to see what it can do.

Ian Bullock:

I think the vision for me is, It's our target audiences, sole practitioners,

Ian Bullock:

SMEs, it's people out there that we talked about the support system before.

Ian Bullock:

it's genuinely there to help support businesses that might not know

Ian Bullock:

how to take an inquiry and turn it into a report delivery at the

Ian Bullock:

end, and everything in between.

Ian Bullock:

There are so many facets of that process that are quite important from

Ian Bullock:

regulation point of view, but also from a customer experience point of view.

Ian Bullock:

So there's a lot of time going into the customer experience

Ian Bullock:

and the customer communication.

Ian Bullock:

and all those things.

Ian Bullock:

So, yeah it's a system and a platform that we are designing to hopefully

Ian Bullock:

disrupt the market a little bit and help firms along the way.

Ian Bullock:

And hopefully it's saving a bit of money cuz we all wanna make money cause we do.

Ian Bullock:

But it's trying to disrupt the market a little bit because at the moment

Ian Bullock:

there's two or three choices and you need two or three systems, so why can't

Ian Bullock:

we have one and be more cost effective and, do a bit of good along the way.

Ian Bullock:

So yeah, quite excited to see where we're.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah I think that's a great idea and I'm really interested

Marion Ellis:

to see how it all pans out.

Marion Ellis:

Cuz it is confusing with lots of different systems and processes and

Marion Ellis:

then people to pull it together.

Marion Ellis:

I remember years and year, many years ago there was a tender that we had

Marion Ellis:

for a new complaints system and.

Marion Ellis:

We had these sort of pitches that, know, people came and I remember

Marion Ellis:

these two old guys turning up like Bert & Ernie, just like old guys wad

Marion Ellis:

on, talked about all their IT stuff.

Marion Ellis:

And you know, there were others that just blew them out the water.

Marion Ellis:

But I always remember this guy saying, Marion, sometimes we

Marion Ellis:

just need a bit of project glue.

Marion Ellis:

It's all, we need some glue to put it together.

Marion Ellis:

And I've hung onto that for y for years cuz obviously things

Marion Ellis:

didn't quite go to a plan.

Marion Ellis:

We just need some glue that sort of pulls things together and sometimes that's a

Marion Ellis:

person, an office manager or whatever.

Marion Ellis:

But sometimes it can be technology we need to keep things really simple so

Marion Ellis:

that it can be, could be manageable.

Marion Ellis:

And I like the idea that, if regulation come in, you've got

Marion Ellis:

everything that you need, at least in, as much as in, in one place.

Marion Ellis:

But every single business I've ever come across is different.

Marion Ellis:

Different in the way they approach things, want to do things.

Marion Ellis:

We're all sticking our ways of things that we like, the rhythm

Marion Ellis:

and routine that gives us comfort.

Marion Ellis:

And when I've seen firms.

Marion Ellis:

Or, you know, individual surveys want to move over to different technology.

Marion Ellis:

They don't have their documents pro their processes documented.

Marion Ellis:

They don't understand how everything happens.

Marion Ellis:

So that can be translated then over to.

Marion Ellis:

a new system or they realize that it's all in their head.

Marion Ellis:

Well, it makes it twice as hard then to any system to work.

Marion Ellis:

So that time to understand how things work, even if you work by yourself it

Marion Ellis:

will make any transition over much, much easier because, You're moving

Marion Ellis:

the same over, but you're also then making improvements at the same time.

Marion Ellis:

So it's quite a big a big thing to go through, but really exciting times then.

Ian Bullock:

Yeah, hopefully.

Ian Bullock:

I mean, I, you know, I, if I get one thing out of it, it will

Ian Bullock:

be, it's a new challenge for me.

Ian Bullock:

I mean, I, I feel like I've done everything I wanted to do in the survey

Ian Bullock:

since, and I love still doing my job.

Ian Bullock:

I still have nothing more than going out the main buildings and.

Ian Bullock:

You know, Carpenters is in a place now where the guys and girls

Ian Bullock:

that help me run that business.

Ian Bullock:

It doesn't need me.

Ian Bullock:

In a way.

Ian Bullock:

It has me and it will always have me, but it doesn't need me.

Ian Bullock:

Which is an amazing place to be.

Ian Bullock:

So it's a nice time for me to think, well, let's do something a bit different.

Ian Bullock:

This has come along and I think.

Ian Bullock:

There's a genuine sort of gap in the market to do this.

Ian Bullock:

There's a big need for this, I think, as an industry, which absolutely talk about,

Ian Bullock:

the regulation, the customer experience.

Ian Bullock:

But let's not forget the guys and girls on the ground.

Ian Bullock:

let's try and make the surveys lives easier.

Ian Bullock:

if uh, if I take a sole practitioner, they will, hopefully they'll love Surventrix

Ian Bullock:

because, Can, it's just do everything in one place, when we have lots of different

Ian Bullock:

bits of paper or different systems and, spend the time on what matters.

Ian Bullock:

And that if I can get one thing, get at the back of it, it will be for a user

Ian Bullock:

to look at it and say, do you know what that allowed me to spend 10, 15 minutes

Ian Bullock:

more with my client because I hadn't gotta do this, that, and the other.

Ian Bullock:

It was just click a button and it's done.

Ian Bullock:

So yeah.

Ian Bullock:

So it's interesting.

Ian Bullock:

I mean, we'll see, but

Marion Ellis:

it's, it is, But I think we've also to be careful,

Marion Ellis:

click a button and it's done.

Marion Ellis:

Because to get to that point of click a button.

Ian Bullock:

Yeah.

Ian Bullock:

Absolutely.

Ian Bullock:

You've gotta, it's not there to replace the human being

Ian Bullock:

or any of that kinda thing.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And I think that's where people see tech solutions as well.

Marion Ellis:

It's gonna fix everything.

Marion Ellis:

Yep.

Marion Ellis:

It's actually, no, it's gonna help you run your business better with confidence.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

So that you can.

Ian Bullock:

Click the button.

Ian Bullock:

That's it.

Ian Bullock:

That's it.

Ian Bullock:

I mean, the sales pitch for me is that, look, this is a system that's been

Ian Bullock:

designed by surveys and a surveyor that's been there, done that, got the t-shirts.

Ian Bullock:

So hopefully we know what the important trigger points are.

Ian Bullock:

The business, the structural bits, the regulation, the compliance,

Ian Bullock:

the auditing, the important bits.

Ian Bullock:

But we use equally know better than anybody.

Ian Bullock:

How important customer service is.

Ian Bullock:

There are so many facets to a system and this is why I don't think it's

Ian Bullock:

ever been perfected, cuz it's not easy.

Ian Bullock:

I think it was easy, everybody would've admit by now, but there's some brilliant

Ian Bullock:

report writing tools out there.

Ian Bullock:

But that's all they do.

Ian Bullock:

Some brilliant directory systems.

Ian Bullock:

It's all they do.

Ian Bullock:

Some brilliant c r m tools.

Ian Bullock:

All they do well, why not have something that pulls all

Ian Bullock:

that together and absolutely.

Ian Bullock:

It allows us to just spend so much more time with the client.

Ian Bullock:

It's not about saying, well, I'll click this and it's done.

Ian Bullock:

It's about, well, I can click that and I can talk to you and answer

Ian Bullock:

your questions about X Y I can run through the report with you.

Ian Bullock:

I can, that

Marion Ellis:

reduces risk ultimately.

Marion Ellis:

but also it means that you can do more of the stuff that you love in your business.

Ian Bullock:

Exactly.

Ian Bullock:

Get rid of, things that nobody enjoys doing but have to do cuz it's important.

Ian Bullock:

Things like terms and conditions and things like audits and job allocations

Ian Bullock:

and job flows and diary management and.

Ian Bullock:

, all of those report delivery things that it's, yeah, that, I dunno,

Ian Bullock:

anyone that enjoys it really, I think they enjoy the customer engagement.

Ian Bullock:

They enjoy looking at the building, spend more time looking at the

Ian Bullock:

building, less time worrying about what you're doing on paper and stuff.

Ian Bullock:

So yeah, it's not a one size fits all.

Ian Bullock:

I think it's flexible.

Ian Bullock:

So I'm, my, I'm interested to sort of get going with it.

Ian Bullock:

There's no better sort of feedback than the people that

Ian Bullock:

see it, so we'll soon find out.

Ian Bullock:

But yeah.

Ian Bullock:

Exciting but scary times ahead.

Ian Bullock:

. Marion Ellis: Good stuff.

Ian Bullock:

Ian, it's been lovely to talk to you today.

Ian Bullock:

I think people will get a lot from you sharing your the word that

Ian Bullock:

comes to mind actually is legacy.

Ian Bullock:

Which sounds a bit, heavy.

Ian Bullock:

But it is, and I think sharing, that's why I love these podcasts,

Ian Bullock:

sharing what you've learned.

Ian Bullock:

You know, the people will be listening to this and think, yeah,

Ian Bullock:

actually that's really helpful and that'll make a difference.

Ian Bullock:

So thank you for that.

Ian Bullock:

thank you very much.

Ian Bullock:

Thanks for listening.

Ian Bullock:

As ever, if you find these podcasts helpful or dare I say it entertaining,

Ian Bullock:

do leave us a review on Google or Apple iTunes because every time

Ian Bullock:

you do, you'll also be helping to make a difference in the world.

Ian Bullock:

Love Surveying is a global partner with B1G1, and you can find out

Ian Bullock:

more information on our Impact page, on the Love Surveying website.

Ian Bullock:

Don't forget, you can watch our free community webinars and find

Ian Bullock:

out more about becoming a Surveyor Hub supporter by visiting love

Ian Bullock:

surveying.com/the Surveyor Hub.

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The Surveyor Hub Podcast
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About your host

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Marion Ellis

As a chartered surveyor with a background in defect and valuation claims, Marion has first-hand experience of why we make mistakes and what we need to do to support ourselves to prevent them. A Fellow member of the RICS and qualified customer experience professional, Marion is passionate about empowering people. At Love Surveying, she provides the support, coaching and networking surveyors and property professionals need to handle career challenges confidently and navigate the right business journey for them. Founder of The Surveyor Hub podcast and community Marion also supports surveyors in business through her coaching and mentoring programmes. Marion is an Ambassador for Lionheart.