Episode 104

104 History, Women and Surveying with Carrie de Silva

Carrie de Silva is a Professor of Real Estate Practice Law, working with RICS-accredited courses for many years, Carrie has also developed the materials and taught on the Sava courses for residential surveyors since 2014 and many of you will know her from the Bluebox partners days.

In this episode, we chatted about Carrie's career in law, her academic work supporting surveyors, and her interest and research into the first professional women, streets named after women and the first female surveyors.

What we cover:

• Carrie's background as an academic lawyer and her career as a Professor of Real Estate Practice Law, teaching prospective chartered surveyors for over 20 years

• Example of cases of negligence and what surveyors need to know in terms of the law in their area of work

• The work that Carries does to empower women

• First Women, a listing of women’s firsts in every industry, including Irene Barcley and Evelyn Perry, the first female chartered surveyors

• Women in Street Names, a project to highlight women in street names in the UK

• Women in Surveying - discussing the gender balance in the industry, imposter syndrome, and what can be done to empower women in the workplace

• Defining career success

• Inspiring kids with surveying

Connect with Carrie de Silva:

Connect with Marion:

Resources: 

The Surveyor Hub:

Transcript
Carrie de Silva:

Then I had one lecture slide that I used to roll out year

Carrie de Silva:

after year, first year law, which was all about these, the pits of law

Carrie de Silva:

that we've talked about and what the surveyors need to know, bit on contract,

Carrie de Silva:

bit on negligence, bit on blah, blah, blah, and whether they wanted to know

Carrie de Silva:

about it or not because it was a law.

Carrie de Silva:

Plus they got told who were the first women lawyers, cuz I thought

Carrie de Silva:

I'd ram this down their throats.

Carrie de Silva:

Then I was sort of, Googling around, and I came across the first woman's surveyor.

Carrie de Silva:

Welcome to the Surveyor Hub

Marion Ellis:

Podcast, the podcast for surveyors who just love what they do.

Marion Ellis:

I'm Marion Ellis, and in today's episode I catch up with Carrie DiSilva.

Marion Ellis:

Many of you will know Carrie from her work as.

Marion Ellis:

Honorary professor at the Royal Agricultural University, a trainer

Marion Ellis:

at Sava, the Survey School, her books and writing contributions

Marion Ellis:

on negligence, but also

Carrie de Silva:

her work and research on the first

Marion Ellis:

female surveyors.

Marion Ellis:

So grab a brew, take the dog for a walk or jump into the car for

Marion Ellis:

your next inspection and listen in.

Marion Ellis:

Oh, and don't forget to check out the podcast show notes, which are also

Marion Ellis:

available on the Love Surveying website.

Marion Ellis:

Carrie , welcome to the podcast.

Marion Ellis:

Lovely to chat to

Carrie de Silva:

you and to you, Marion.

Marion Ellis:

And I've been, it's been a little while, but I've been

Marion Ellis:

trying to get you on the podcast.

Marion Ellis:

For a little while to have a, a chat.

Marion Ellis:

And I know you're super busy, but also I'm terrible at forgetting

Marion Ellis:

what I'm doing and what I'm up to.

Marion Ellis:

So it's really good to to have you on and, and we know each other from

Marion Ellis:

our, our blue box partners days.

Marion Ellis:

But could you, for listeners who have no idea who you are, explain a bit more about

Marion Ellis:

what you do and And, and take it from there cuz you're, you're not a surveyor,

Marion Ellis:

but no, you're very useful to us.

Marion Ellis:

surveyors.

Carrie de Silva:

That's what I'd start with really.

Carrie de Silva:

So, I've been teaching chartered prospective chartered surveyors

Carrie de Silva:

for well over 20 years.

Carrie de Silva:

My background is as a, an academic lawyer and before that in tax law.

Carrie de Silva:

So I graduated in law a little late.

Carrie de Silva:

I was a slightly mature student having sort of been abroad and.

Carrie de Silva:

Not really done o a levels at the right time.

Carrie de Silva:

Went into office work, did o n A levels in the evening, did a

Carrie de Silva:

straightforward law degree full-time, so I didn't graduate class 27.

Carrie de Silva:

And then I went into the sort of corporate world, Arthur Anderson,

Carrie de Silva:

what was one of them of the Big five equivalent PWC for, for younger

Carrie de Silva:

listeners, one of those sorts of.

Carrie de Silva:

And sort of did taxation and tax law when I had children.

Carrie de Silva:

I was still in that world, but I'm morphed into teaching because I'm morphed

Carrie de Silva:

into, although I was full on for the first year or two of my oldest my son's

Carrie de Silva:

life, I . That was all a bit too much.

Carrie de Silva:

And all new lovely young people that get sort of maternity leave and

Carrie de Silva:

paternity leave and all the good stuff,

Carrie de Silva:

you know, 30 years and more ago, it was a slightly different picture, particularly

Carrie de Silva:

if you were in the professions.

Carrie de Silva:

Anyway, we've moved, we've moved some way forward on that.

Carrie de Silva:

So I'm morphed into teaching and then I found myself teaching

Carrie de Silva:

prospective chartered surveyors over 20 years ago, almost by chance.

Carrie de Silva:

It was just the advert that wanted a law lecturer that suited me.

Carrie de Silva:

I apparently suited them.

Carrie de Silva:

I came into the resi more into the residential because I was largely teaching

Carrie de Silva:

prospective rural surveyors, land agents at Harper Adams University actually.

Carrie de Silva:

And I came into more the rural world really by quite a fluke.

Carrie de Silva:

Obviously rurals are funny area cuz we cover.

Carrie de Silva:

Obviously agricultural, but residential and commercial property as well.

Carrie de Silva:

So it was, I'd got quite a little background of the sorts

Carrie de Silva:

of legal issues they wanted.

Carrie de Silva:

I actually wrote an article on the history of surveying education.

Carrie de Silva:

Obviously being at a university, I'm interested in education surveying,

Carrie de Silva:

literally going back hundreds of years through to when they started

Carrie de Silva:

accrediting in the 19th century.

Carrie de Silva:

Not only the R I C S, but all the other different surveying groups that.

Carrie de Silva:

Many of which have been absorbed into the R I C S over the 20th century.

Carrie de Silva:

I wrote that article and I was seen the article happened to be seen one of those

Carrie de Silva:

serendipitous things by a name that will be familiar to many if not all listeners.

Carrie de Silva:

And that was Chris Rispin.

Carrie de Silva:

And he just happened right desk on the right day at the right

Carrie de Silva:

time in front of the right man.

Carrie de Silva:

He happened to be looking for somebody to.

Carrie de Silva:

In the new incarnation of the residential surveying course which is run via Ava.

Carrie de Silva:

And so I got involved at, at the beginning of, there had been various

Carrie de Silva:

courses on various things for the sector before, but in 2014 I got involved

Carrie de Silva:

in that and I, there, I still am.

Carrie de Silva:

I mean it started with would you be able to manage two or three days a year?

Carrie de Silva:

Because it was only more or less one group going through, aren't we now, we

Carrie de Silva:

now have significant numbers of groups and as Marion said, that was initially

Carrie de Silva:

Done through a company which had other strands and predated that by a long way.

Carrie de Silva:

But it was blue box and they were predominantly, not

Carrie de Silva:

exclusively trading providers.

Carrie de Silva:

And I got into, I got in in there.

Carrie de Silva:

So that was my introduction to the residential world.

Carrie de Silva:

But I'm still very much the law and a little bit, I'm not so much on this

Carrie de Silva:

course, but with other courses, taxation And I still do, I'm still involved with

Carrie de Silva:

the rural, the rural universities I have since I sort of dodge between Harper Adams

Carrie de Silva:

and the Royal Agricultural University.

Carrie de Silva:

And I'm a professor of real estate practice law with Cirencester.

Carrie de Silva:

That's the Royal Agricultural University.

Carrie de Silva:

That's a professor without portfolio really.

Carrie de Silva:

I'm a kind of visiting professor.

Carrie de Silva:

And I still do a.

Carrie de Silva:

Visiting lecturing at Harper Adams on the postgraduate respective

Carrie de Silva:

rural surveyors that are postgrads.

Carrie de Silva:

So they've found, they've found the lovely world of surveying a little bit later on.

Carrie de Silva:

And of course, also very much with the residential surveyors through Ava and

Carrie de Silva:

other, and property training solutions.

Carrie de Silva:

You know, doing bits of C P D and, and whatever.

Carrie de Silva:

So that's that's really where I come from and what I'm doing on

Carrie de Silva:

the, the, the day-to-day stuff.

Carrie de Silva:

Really my main, my main work.

Marion Ellis:

Oh, there's so many questions what an amazing,

Marion Ellis:

varied career because I know you, you do, you specialize in equine

Carrie de Silva:

law as well.

Carrie de Silva:

Well, don't specialize in equine as such, as such such horses in,

Carrie de Silva:

in the, for the non rural . Yes.

Carrie de Silva:

Urbanites.

Carrie de Silva:

Not that you don't get horses in town.

Carrie de Silva:

Funny I should say that cuz I've just been typing about the first mounted

Carrie de Silva:

police women and they were obviously in, in town anyway, bit of a tangent there.

Carrie de Silva:

No, because being very much in originally until I until Blue Box

Carrie de Silva:

and SAVA discovered me, I was very much in the rural land-based sector.

Carrie de Silva:

Obviously horses are something that are around.

Carrie de Silva:

People are managing land for horse use, cellaring and

Carrie de Silva:

valuing property for equine use.

Carrie de Silva:

So you're moving in those circles.

Carrie de Silva:

And just on a C P D level, not on any accredited level.

Carrie de Silva:

I've been running equine law seminars, sort of one day seminars.

Carrie de Silva:

So either in-house at the university, or for, anybody that would have me really.

Carrie de Silva:

So I've done bits with the British Horse Society, some of the specialist

Carrie de Silva:

insurance companies that deal with equine and agricultural property.

Carrie de Silva:

Actually the horse welfare organizations.

Carrie de Silva:

So various people, so where people are dealing with horses either

Carrie de Silva:

personally As, as a hobby, as competitors, or indeed, professionally.

Carrie de Silva:

There's lots of aspects of law that they should be aware of.

Carrie de Silva:

Even if only to know, oh, crikey, this is where I do need to get further advice.

Carrie de Silva:

Nip problems in the bud.

Marion Ellis:

Do you actually like horses?

Marion Ellis:

Yes.

Carrie de Silva:

Yes.

Carrie de Silva:

, yes.

Carrie de Silva:

No, I've ridden all my life only in a very small, you know, just

Carrie de Silva:

recreational, recreational way.

Carrie de Silva:

Yes.

Carrie de Silva:

But

Marion Ellis:

Is interesting.

Marion Ellis:

So various questions I want to, to ask you.

Marion Ellis:

You've had, this sort of quite varied career and you just

Marion Ellis:

explained, you know, taxation next to equine law, rural, residential.

Marion Ellis:

How, and perhaps it's sort of different in-law, but I, I sort of see

Marion Ellis:

similar with surveyors where they get involved in different types of work.

Marion Ellis:

How do you say, jump about or, or evolve.

Marion Ellis:

How do you know you are ready to.

Marion Ellis:

Talk about equine law.

Marion Ellis:

How do you know you're ready to talk about different things?

Marion Ellis:

Equine and qualifications or

Carrie de Silva:

a bit of equine law's?

Carrie de Silva:

A bit of misnomer.

Carrie de Silva:

I talk to the same thing about to everybody . So if you look at the

Carrie de Silva:

areas of law that people running an equine business need to know, a

Carrie de Silva:

residential survey needs to know, obviously there are a bit I draw out.

Carrie de Silva:

But we talk about, you know, negligence.

Carrie de Silva:

Well, the framework's, the.

Carrie de Silva:

When I've got a room full of residential surveyors, I might be specializing

Carrie de Silva:

and drawing on examples of, our lovely negligent valuation of which I've

Carrie de Silva:

written a whole little case book.

Carrie de Silva:

There are so many cases, but that's nothing against written about valuers, cuz

Carrie de Silva:

any subject you pick, you could do that.

Carrie de Silva:

So you know, the frameworks of contract law, the frameworks of negligence occupies

Carrie de Silva:

liability, maybe some employment law.

Carrie de Silva:

All the different things that people need to know in these sectors are similar.

Carrie de Silva:

And also then, getting towards more specialism.

Carrie de Silva:

It's all pretty much, I would say, the land and property.

Carrie de Silva:

Yeah.

Carrie de Silva:

So yes, I've got little bits of areas where I've delved deeper that

Carrie de Silva:

I wouldn't, say with the rural people that I wouldn't have if I wasn't dealing

Carrie de Silva:

with rural or obviously residential.

Carrie de Silva:

I particularly, I mean, not to keep dwelling on managing

Carrie de Silva:

valuation but I picked that up more than I had done before.

Carrie de Silva:

When, Starting to work with the residential surveyors, but the

Carrie de Silva:

key, if you list the subject areas, yes, there is some special bits.

Carrie de Silva:

So, I mean, there's a load of stuff on the Animals Act that clearly I

Carrie de Silva:

don't do with the with the surveyors, although with the residential, it's

Carrie de Silva:

actually kind of interesting though because it was all land and property.

Carrie de Silva:

The rooms full of resi valuers that I've been teaching through Blue Box and SAVA.

Carrie de Silva:

There's always somebody in the room that has other interests, and those

Carrie de Silva:

other interests and experience might be more commercial property.

Carrie de Silva:

It might be more in planning and development.

Carrie de Silva:

And it's surprisingly often and some of them you find

Marion Ellis:

So, yeah, absolutely.

Marion Ellis:

And I, I see this with a lot of surveyors that I come across as,

Marion Ellis:

you know, you might start on.

Marion Ellis:

Commercial or rural path, but then your career takes you into

Marion Ellis:

residential and the market changes and you move back to something else.

Marion Ellis:

Or and so how surveyors define themselves or what they call

Marion Ellis:

themselves can really evolve over the

Carrie de Silva:

the course of a career.

Carrie de Silva:

It's interesting you should say that, Marion.

Carrie de Silva:

And it's I mean that's what's kind of interesting about the qualification

Carrie de Silva:

because it gives you this scope because you don't do a separate qualification.

Carrie de Silva:

You might need separate short courses.

Carrie de Silva:

To give you particular technical information, but once you're a

Carrie de Silva:

surveyor, you're a surveyor or an asoc, R I C s or whatever it might be.

Carrie de Silva:

And I know you qualified through specific route, but the actual qualification,

Carrie de Silva:

you don't have to qualify as a chartered surveyor again when we had it.

Carrie de Silva:

But it was particularly outstanding when the, the last big recession,

Carrie de Silva:

the sort of 2008 period.

Carrie de Silva:

And on our postgraduate course at the university, we got.

Carrie de Silva:

I mean, I won't say a, a waterfall, but certainly a trickle.

Carrie de Silva:

Quite a, quite a few, over a few years of commercial surveyors, . Cause

Carrie de Silva:

suddenly their world had fallen apart and they were requalifying, so they

Carrie de Silva:

were already chartered surveyors.

Carrie de Silva:

They were doing a small number of modules saying actually we're

Carrie de Silva:

really interested in the rural side.

Carrie de Silva:

And we'll do that.

Carrie de Silva:

And as you say, things change with the markets, the economic cycle,

Carrie de Silva:

people's personal interests.

Carrie de Silva:

, yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And, and like anything, you can, you've got to

Marion Ellis:

make sure you are, you've got the technical ability to do whatever it

Marion Ellis:

is, that's the, the starting point.

Marion Ellis:

Many surveyors will have heard you speak at different events or,

Marion Ellis:

attending your, your training where you've talked about negligence and

Marion Ellis:

all the different different cases.

Marion Ellis:

One of the things I've often found confusing is understanding case

Marion Ellis:

law and sometimes, something that happens in one part of the law sets a

Marion Ellis:

precedent for something that happens in a different sector and some cases.

Marion Ellis:

Brought because of one particular reason, but it has implications for others.

Marion Ellis:

It's quite hard to keep track unless you're really interested

Marion Ellis:

and have the mind like yourself.

Marion Ellis:

But with a lot of so that really is a point for anybody out there who gets

Marion Ellis:

bamboozled with all the different ones you think you need to remember.

Marion Ellis:

You're not alone.

Marion Ellis:

But what do you think surveyors.

Marion Ellis:

Could be doing, on the one hand, yes, it's be as technically competent as

Marion Ellis:

you can be and c p d and those things.

Marion Ellis:

But do you think surveyors need to have a better understanding of law?

Marion Ellis:

there anything in particular you think that they should be doing or,

Marion Ellis:

because, you, you train and learn and get qualified, and you might know a

Marion Ellis:

bit of law and then people forget it.

Marion Ellis:

you know, and, and for me it feels like something to keep plugged in regularly.

Marion Ellis:

Not just the latest Hart and Large case or whatever comes up.

Marion Ellis:

But having a good understanding because a lot of it's about context.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And we can very easily panic about the next case of the next case that comes.

Marion Ellis:

But we've gotta look at the picture as a, as a whole and understand

Marion Ellis:

the landscape of the world

Carrie de Silva:

we're working.

Carrie de Silva:

Well, I think you raised quite a few points.

Carrie de Silva:

Sorry, . I mean, one case law is kind of difficult to, to understand quite

Carrie de Silva:

how it operates until you're a bit more immersed in it, really, because people

Carrie de Silva:

learn case law and I hope I try and get this over in my own classes, but you.

Carrie de Silva:

No, there's, well, there's some laws from legislation and some

Carrie de Silva:

laws from cases, but cases are not just an alternative to legislation.

Carrie de Silva:

They operate completely differently.

Carrie de Silva:

And I do find sometimes, not just surveyors, I mean just, people

Carrie de Silva:

treat cases as if their legislation, oh, the law is that the margin

Carrie de Silva:

on ordinary property is five.

Carrie de Silva:

. Well, that's a guide.

Carrie de Silva:

That was in a case.

Carrie de Silva:

You can find other cases.

Carrie de Silva:

It's likely to be followed because you can find cases similar, but there's

Carrie de Silva:

always room for it to be distinguished.

Carrie de Silva:

There's always room for it to be altered and what have you.

Carrie de Silva:

It's not like a bit of legislation.

Carrie de Silva:

That's SEC section one, 5%.

Carrie de Silva:

That's it.

Carrie de Silva:

Full stop.

Carrie de Silva:

Yeah, so I think that's kind of way it operates is something.

Carrie de Silva:

Keeping on top of case law.

Carrie de Silva:

Yeah, I mean, you could go mad because there's always things, certainly at

Carrie de Silva:

the lower levels and you hope if you read your press in whatever sector

Carrie de Silva:

you are in, you pick up the main ones.

Carrie de Silva:

I mean, you mentioned Hart and Large, which I think the whole residential

Carrie de Silva:

sector pretty much knows about.

Carrie de Silva:

Not least because it went to the Court of Appeal but largely cuz a couple of almost.

Carrie de Silva:

Unrelated to the negligence, I mean, it would've been a straightforward

Carrie de Silva:

negligence case, had the damages not been decided in a slightly unusual

Carrie de Silva:

way, and of course had had Mr.

Carrie de Silva:

Large been fully insured.

Carrie de Silva:

People would've just got dealt with and we wouldn't have really heard all about it.

Carrie de Silva:

So that was as much a lesson for the surveyors as the negligence.

Carrie de Silva:

In terms of keeping on top of the cases, yes.

Carrie de Silva:

You wanna keep on top of the main cases, but I think what you also said was very

Carrie de Silva:

important, Mary, and it's the framework and I think that perhaps does need

Carrie de Silva:

reminders and that's what CPDs about.

Carrie de Silva:

You know, you're not going to go and redo.

Carrie de Silva:

Your course on basic tort law every year.

Carrie de Silva:

It's not necessary, but actually keeping in mind that overall

Carrie de Silva:

framework of not what is negligence as much as thousands of cases.

Carrie de Silva:

What the new cases do, of course, is put things in a very practical

Carrie de Silva:

context, so as well as the actual detailed legal reasoning.

Carrie de Silva:

I'm sorry to harp on about Hart and Large, but it's fairly recent

Carrie de Silva:

and it's one people will know.

Carrie de Silva:

It just reminds you, well, what were the practical things?

Carrie de Silva:

That caught the, the surveyor out, a very experienced, sever and ex severe

Carrie de Silva:

that had no real problems before.

Carrie de Silva:

Nobody was saying, as is sometimes said in these negligence cases, this

Carrie de Silva:

is clearly somebody who is incompetent and shouldn't be in practice.

Carrie de Silva:

Nobody was saying that about Mr.

Carrie de Silva:

Large.

Carrie de Silva:

, but there were little, you know, little alarm bells queries that the

Carrie de Silva:

clients had raised that he didn't follow up on things that looked shoddy.

Carrie de Silva:

And just those practicalities of how you go about your, your work, I think you can

Carrie de Silva:

get really useful lessons from the cases from that because they are, by definition,

Carrie de Silva:

A particular scenario, you know, this is what, this is somebody that went

Carrie de Silva:

out, they've now been found negligent.

Carrie de Silva:

Well, what did they do?

Carrie de Silva:

Almost getting away from the, oh, well, you've gotta establish a Duty of Care.

Carrie de Silva:

Breach of duty of care, the legal framework.

Carrie de Silva:

Which I think, yeah, people do need a periodic reminder of that, but I

Carrie de Silva:

think they're useful for practitioners for the sort of stories behind

Carrie de Silva:

them and what you can do to I,

Marion Ellis:

oh, this is, this is so true.

Marion Ellis:

And I talked to, a lot of my clients and, and surveyors about, and, and

Marion Ellis:

just like I said, you know, you can be very technically competent, but

Marion Ellis:

it's, you know, how you apply it.

Marion Ellis:

But also it's the whole service that you are, you are offering people.

Marion Ellis:

You know, even your upfront marketing setting expectation, the

Marion Ellis:

sales conversations you have, the way that you interact with people.

Marion Ellis:

There are lots of different things that can help you.

Marion Ellis:

Spot a risk, you know, a risk of something going wrong at the earliest opportunity.

Marion Ellis:

If you are looking for it and the, and, and, and it should be, you know,

Marion Ellis:

I've delivered my service to my client, have they got everything that they need

Marion Ellis:

to know to make an informed decision?

Marion Ellis:

Because if a client is not asking you questions, if they're not querying

Marion Ellis:

things, if you haven't built that in, you are more likely to have a problem.

Marion Ellis:

And so that whole customer journey, however fluffy people think it might be,

Marion Ellis:

you know, is, is is vitally important as you were, you were talking there, there

Marion Ellis:

about big cases, a member at Blue Box.

Marion Ellis:

We had a C P D Day that we did and we did a little quiz, like a case law quiz.

Marion Ellis:

I dunno if you remember, and we had some cases and you found the locations.

Marion Ellis:

And we had some pictures of the locations.

Marion Ellis:

Well, it wasn't me, was it?

Marion Ellis:

No, the pictures wasn't.

Marion Ellis:

Oh, no, no.

Marion Ellis:

It was, it was, it was, it was Phil as well, wasn't it Phil?

Marion Ellis:

Yeah, I did.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah, he did.

Marion Ellis:

And it's the, it it's the whole sort of story around it and

Marion Ellis:

some of those stories are great.

Marion Ellis:

There was one, I think that, I think you had shared a picture to do with

Marion Ellis:

a slug in the beer bottle, was it?

Marion Ellis:

Or the

Carrie de Silva:

ice cream?.

Carrie de Silva:

Well, well, yes.

Carrie de Silva:

I mean that, the story of that of course, and many listeners will be

Carrie de Silva:

immediately on that because if you've only done law for about five minutes,

Carrie de Silva:

it's one of those core cases, the, the foundation of modern, not the foundation

Carrie de Silva:

of negligence, which is sometimes wrongly said, which irritates me.

Carrie de Silva:

Because if I might say when.

Carrie de Silva:

Writing something on negligence a few years ago, and I really

Carrie de Silva:

went into it for a journal paper.

Carrie de Silva:

I found cases dated 13 in the 13 hundreds Wow.

Carrie de Silva:

With similar principles.

Carrie de Silva:

But Donahue and Stevenson, 1932, Harris of Lords was involved a snail

Carrie de Silva:

in a buffalo ginger beer crown cap.

Carrie de Silva:

So the, this, you know, the cafe serving it had.

Carrie de Silva:

Interference with it.

Carrie de Silva:

And it was sort of the basis of modern consumer law and just

Carrie de Silva:

exactly du owe a duty of care too.

Carrie de Silva:

But it just adds that that bit of color to it, knowing the story.

Carrie de Silva:

And that's, that draws on the point that you said you got this random case.

Carrie de Silva:

Physically it took place in Paisley in Scotland in the 1920s.

Carrie de Silva:

It's about, you know, cafe serving ginger beer, and yet that is the basis for who

Carrie de Silva:

is your, who do you, who you owe duty to care to in, in, in wider contexts.

Carrie de Silva:

Mm-hmm.

Marion Ellis:

It was quite, well I, the stories, they're the

Marion Ellis:

stories that bring it to life.

Marion Ellis:

Cuz we'll remember the story about the slug not necessarily the case

Marion Ellis:

name, but even so, we remember it.

Marion Ellis:

And I think, I think also, I remember with that quiz that we did, so we had pictures

Marion Ellis:

of like the location or the house.

Marion Ellis:

And it would the, it was, link it to the actual ca caseload.

Marion Ellis:

And we had one and off the top of my head, I can't remember which case it

Marion Ellis:

is, but it's probably good that I don't mention it cuz we put in the photo and

Marion Ellis:

we emailed it out to people and then the person surveillance was involved.

Marion Ellis:

, we had the wrong house cuz

Carrie de Silva:

Google, Robertson, Smithson 1958.

Carrie de Silva:

And the surveyor was who had been found negligent, was still.

Carrie de Silva:

Nearly 30 years later working for the same firm.

Carrie de Silva:

And he, he very kindly told us we got the wrong house.

Carrie de Silva:

and even more kindly sent us a picture of the right house.

Carrie de Silva:

Yes.

Carrie de Silva:

Which is yeah, I've, I've, I've brought that one up before

Carrie de Silva:

. Marion Ellis: Oh yeah.

Carrie de Silva:

That was hilarious.

Carrie de Silva:

Do you think you know everything and then Google's street

Carrie de Silva:

view, , it gives you a problem.

Carrie de Silva:

Yeah, something, something you said about the

Carrie de Silva:

obviously knowing these cases and when, you know, when you're sitting.

Carrie de Silva:

Desk working with your client, you know, where is the exposure and all that.

Carrie de Silva:

It also leads to something a bit, sort of, bit relates to what we were talking

Carrie de Silva:

about with the eon bits and bobs that I do, because sometimes certainly

Carrie de Silva:

students and even qualified surveyors sort of, dare I say, glaze over a.

Carrie de Silva:

When it gets a bit more is, well, do we really need this?

Carrie de Silva:

Isn't this what the lawyers do?

Carrie de Silva:

You know, I can't understand these difficult words and all that.

Carrie de Silva:

And also the other point you made surveys and value as a dealing

Carrie de Silva:

with loads of different subjects.

Carrie de Silva:

You can't possibly be absolutely on top of all the planning law and all

Carrie de Silva:

the law in this area and that area.

Carrie de Silva:

But I see the role of, of.

Carrie de Silva:

Some of it is, is, is core.

Carrie de Silva:

You know, you need to know how not to be found negligent.

Carrie de Silva:

But a lot of the wider law that we teach, you know, the, some of the

Carrie de Silva:

landlord restrictive covenant easements and all this, it's almost so that you

Carrie de Silva:

concede the questions with your client.

Carrie de Silva:

You, you are, you know, you are saying make sure you don't buy this

Carrie de Silva:

property until you've checked that out.

Carrie de Silva:

You know, this is the question to ask your lawyer.

Carrie de Silva:

And I mean, hard and large.

Carrie de Silva:

Again, that was one of the things that came up in there where there were things

Carrie de Silva:

that I, I mean, I can't know what Mr.

Carrie de Silva:

Mr.

Carrie de Silva:

Large was thinking of but I one suspects it was the, well, that's a sort of law.

Carrie de Silva:

When he was asked had he told the client about professional

Carrie de Silva:

consultant certificates, which, which, which would give the

Carrie de Silva:

builders and architects guarantees.

Carrie de Silva:

And, you know, you think, oh, well that's the lawyer stuff.

Carrie de Silva:

And the lawyer of by the same token, I think thought, oh, well if

Carrie de Silva:

there's a problem with the property, there's a mayor, or pick it up.

Carrie de Silva:

And there were various things that neither did and the lawyers were just as

Carrie de Silva:

negligent as the surveyor in that case.

Carrie de Silva:

I hasten to add and in and as what the architect says, were the builders.

Carrie de Silva:

And, and it's

Marion Ellis:

a great, you know, it's a great.

Marion Ellis:

Way of looking at it because actually we all need to be working together

Marion Ellis:

holistically for the client and not in silo as much as we as we are.

Marion Ellis:

Harry, I wanted to ask you a bit about the work that you do,

Marion Ellis:

a bit about your writing and the, the work that you do in terms of

Marion Ellis:

empowering or, or championing women.

Marion Ellis:

And as you were talking about your career so far, even though I consider

Marion Ellis:

you to be super posh compared to me, you've talked about taking some

Marion Ellis:

time out on being a mature student, which lots of people can relate to.

Marion Ellis:

You know, your, your career evolving.

Marion Ellis:

with having children and moving into different type of work.

Marion Ellis:

So I think, no matter how different we might feel, many of us have a, a similar

Marion Ellis:

journey or things that, that resonate.

Marion Ellis:

Tell me a bit about your, your works.

Marion Ellis:

I know you've written some books on first women and you're involved in

Marion Ellis:

all sorts of women related things.

Marion Ellis:

I can put

Carrie de Silva:

it that.

Carrie de Silva:

Well, I am.

Carrie de Silva:

Well, what happened?

Carrie de Silva:

Again, this sort of snowballed really.

Carrie de Silva:

First of all, I'm also very interested in history as well as law, and I have to go.

Carrie de Silva:

I did a master's degree in history, part-time, sort of evening classes at

Carrie de Silva:

the local university, which was keel.

Carrie de Silva:

So, and so I've always been interested in history and all that, and then

Carrie de Silva:

I did an abandoned PhD on the history of agricultural education.

Carrie de Silva:

The PhD didn't get completed, but there's a, there's an online ebook and

Carrie de Silva:

a book that sort of came out of it.

Carrie de Silva:

Then I had one lecture slide that I used to roll out year after year

Carrie de Silva:

after year, first year law, you know, which was all about these snippets

Carrie de Silva:

of law that we've talked about.

Carrie de Silva:

You know, what do surveyors need to know, bit on contract, bit on

Carrie de Silva:

negligence, bit on blah, blah, blah, and whether they wanted to know about

Carrie de Silva:

it or not, because it was a law class, they got told who were the first women.

Carrie de Silva:

Because I thought I'd ram this down their throats.

Carrie de Silva:

So you know, the first woman solicitor, Arista Judge Supreme Court.

Carrie de Silva:

Well, when I first started we hadn't got a, you know, it was so long ago we

Carrie de Silva:

hadn't got a woman in the Supreme Court.

Carrie de Silva:

But anyway, there we are.

Carrie de Silva:

Then that's, of course, I was sort of just Googling around and that's how

Carrie de Silva:

I came across the first Woman survey.

Carrie de Silva:

A lot has, an awful lot has been done on the first women lawyers

Carrie de Silva:

particularly in the last few years.

Carrie de Silva:

The centenary of women qualifying in most professions was 1922.

Carrie de Silva:

Stroke 23.

Carrie de Silva:

There was a, a, a a a a bit of legislation in 1919 that allowed women to enter

Carrie de Silva:

the professions medicine aside cuz medicine they'd been in since the.

Carrie de Silva:

Et cetera, but women were actually prohibited from being lawyers.

Carrie de Silva:

Until then.

Carrie de Silva:

We're not sure about surveyors.

Carrie de Silva:

There's no record of anybody applying.

Carrie de Silva:

They could have applied.

Carrie de Silva:

Things get lost.

Carrie de Silva:

We do.

Carrie de Silva:

We don't know.

Carrie de Silva:

But anyway, once the ax was through, we got a first woman.

Carrie de Silva:

So then I sort of did this list, which has now hundreds of names.

Carrie de Silva:

It's not, it's not a book, it's online.

Carrie de Silva:

It's an e thing, but it's, it's, it's, as I say, there's hundreds of

Carrie de Silva:

names of women first, and a lot of them are in the professions and, and

Carrie de Silva:

legal positions and what have you.

Carrie de Silva:

But also in, you know, just.

Carrie de Silva:

Out of sheer interest and whatever.

Carrie de Silva:

So, you know, the first woman to 7 million records or you know, just

Carrie de Silva:

random things, sporting achievements organizations, various, various things.

Carrie de Silva:

So that was that one.

Carrie de Silva:

And then that led me to a bit more deeper work on the first

Carrie de Silva:

surveyor, particularly cuz she.

Carrie de Silva:

Been done.

Carrie de Silva:

Much done.

Carrie de Silva:

That's an awful word, isn't it?

Carrie de Silva:

. She hadn't really been studied so much.

Carrie de Silva:

Now, the exciting thing about the First Woman's survey, well

Carrie de Silva:

there are several exciting things.

Carrie de Silva:

If I can lead onto this point at this Juncture Mart.

Carrie de Silva:

Firstly, She wasn't just a surveyor, and I'd use that word just not to

Carrie de Silva:

do any offense to any surveyors, but my goodness she qualified in 1970.

Marion Ellis:

So, so, and, and just for those listening, it's Irene Bark.

Carrie de Silva:

Irene Bark.

Carrie de Silva:

Irene.

Carrie de Silva:

It's actually Irene, it's pronounced.

Carrie de Silva:

Okay.

Carrie de Silva:

Bar Barkley.

Carrie de Silva:

I only knew that recently.

Carrie de Silva:

Marion, cuz you've heard me call, call her Irene.

Carrie de Silva:

Well, I've got anti Irene.

Carrie de Silva:

You see?

Carrie de Silva:

That's why . Yeah, I know it.

Carrie de Silva:

No, we know.

Carrie de Silva:

Okay.

Carrie de Silva:

I, I've since met family members actually and other that knew her.

Carrie de Silva:

But anyway, she qualified as a chartered survey, but she

Carrie de Silva:

did government commissions.

Carrie de Silva:

She was doing radio broadcast, she was working at national level and

Carrie de Silva:

she was running private practice.

Carrie de Silva:

Her, her sector was housing.

Carrie de Silva:

So actually in her sector as such, she wasn't groundbreaking cuz there'd

Carrie de Silva:

been women in housing management from the 19th century, sometimes

Carrie de Silva:

called the Octavia Hill system.

Carrie de Silva:

Octavia Hill now better known for being a found co-founder of the National Trust.

Carrie de Silva:

Anyway, she came through that housing Women with Women

Carrie de Silva:

housing management system.

Carrie de Silva:

But very few went on to qualify as charter surveys.

Carrie de Silva:

She'd had a, she'd got a degree, she studied history at the

Carrie de Silva:

University of London, Bedford College, the women's college.

Carrie de Silva:

And so there we are.

Carrie de Silva:

What was I going to say?

Carrie de Silva:

Oh, yes, she was in private practice.

Carrie de Silva:

She was also what is now called, What used to be this Pancreas Housing Association,

Carrie de Silva:

oh, it's now called Origin Housing.

Carrie de Silva:

And that was, it wasn't the first, but it was one of the early housing associations.

Carrie de Silva:

She was involved in, in slum clearance.

Carrie de Silva:

She refurbished, first of all, but found that was just a dreadful job.

Carrie de Silva:

She's referred to demolish and rebuild and we are talking in the area to the

Carrie de Silva:

side of Houston Station, summers town and there's a little museum now, summers

Carrie de Silva:

town covering wider history but also.

Carrie de Silva:

Are Barclay and the others, nobody ever remembers the second woman to qualify.

Carrie de Silva:

And I wish I hadn't said that because I've forgotten

Marion Ellis:

Evelyn Perry.

Carrie de Silva:

Perry and I recently, oh, this would like a great quiz.

Carrie de Silva:

I, I've recently found a picture of Evelyn Perry because Oh, fabulous.

Carrie de Silva:

It doesn't just come up on Google like it does for Irene Barky and I

Carrie de Silva:

found a picture in some of the old some pancreas minutes and magazines.

Carrie de Silva:

So there we are.

Carrie de Silva:

And she was secretary of the St.

Carrie de Silva:

Hank Pancreas Housing Association from 1925 to 1972.

Carrie de Silva:

Wow, good grief.

Carrie de Silva:

She was in business for over 50 years and had two children, a

Carrie de Silva:

husband who was politically active.

Carrie de Silva:

And yeah, very interesting person.

Marion Ellis:

There's a couple of things there.

Marion Ellis:

Firstly, thank you for sharing that.

Marion Ellis:

Cause I know lots of surveyors out there might not know about

Marion Ellis:

I really Barclay or evil Pering.

Carrie de Silva:

Hmm.

Carrie de Silva:

So there's a couple of things that come to mind, and

Marion Ellis:

some of this may not be for you to to answer.

Marion Ellis:

But I've, for a long time, for lots of different reasons, r i s doesn't

Marion Ellis:

seem to have talked about women.

Marion Ellis:

You know, you talked about all the other professions or almost sort of.

Marion Ellis:

Showcasing role models, if I can put it that way.

Marion Ellis:

And what we don't know is whether Irene E wanted to do that or not to do that.

Marion Ellis:

Whether she was involved in championing women or she just wanted to get on with,

Carrie de Silva:

with doing, she was involved in championing women, women,

Carrie de Silva:

I'm not sure through the r I c s or not.

Carrie de Silva:

I have no, whether, but in general she was, and there's actually,

Carrie de Silva:

I've got letters that she wrote, for instance, to her old college.

Carrie de Silva:

Principal that, you know, she was disappointed that she couldn't,

Carrie de Silva:

cuz she had women working for her, both in private practice and

Carrie de Silva:

the, in the housing association.

Carrie de Silva:

And she actually expressed disappointment that more wouldn't go, they qualified

Carrie de Silva:

as housing managers, but they wouldn't go to the next stage, which by the way,

Carrie de Silva:

at one stage was through the R I c.

Carrie de Silva:

I mean the Institute of Housing Management, I'm sure you know

Carrie de Silva:

that's an institute in itself.

Carrie de Silva:

. But at one point they'd got these, these housing managers qualifying

Carrie de Silva:

through the R I C S or the si, it wasn't Royal in the early thirties yet.

Carrie de Silva:

And she was disappointed and she did try.

Carrie de Silva:

She also was quite keen.

Carrie de Silva:

I mean, on the one hand she wanted to champion women and

Carrie de Silva:

we've got evidence of that.

Carrie de Silva:

On the other hand, she was very keen on not being called a woman's of hair.

Carrie de Silva:

and she said, I'm, she did an awful lot of work, particularly post-war

Carrie de Silva:

on boards and, not, I mean things like the, the gas board and things,

Carrie de Silva:

sort of senior, senior board roles.

Carrie de Silva:

And she kept saying, I hope I've not been chosen as the token

Carrie de Silva:

woman, although I suspect I have.

Carrie de Silva:

You know, she was said, I wanna be chosen as me as a surveyor, not as a woman's.

Carrie de Silva:

So,

Marion Ellis:

And, you know, doesn't that resonate?

Marion Ellis:

And I'm sure many women listening to this, it'll absolutely resonate.

Marion Ellis:

Because, even myself, the experience that I've got with surveyors

Marion Ellis:

and claims and complaints and.

Marion Ellis:

and all I've ever get asked to do is to be on A D N I panel, talk about women,

Marion Ellis:

and I'm, you know, whilst I'm known for the love surveying and the Surveyor

Marion Ellis:

Hub, I'm largely known for Women in Surveying, which is a small little project

Marion Ellis:

I did about, you know, five years ago.

Marion Ellis:

And I just think it's, it's quite sad on the one and, you know, I

Marion Ellis:

mean, how long ago was Irene talking, you know, talking about this?

Marion Ellis:

And yet we're still not only in the fact.

Marion Ellis:

We are women and we're allowed to be women and what we bring and some of the,

Marion Ellis:

the challenges or positives that we face, and I think it's a really difficult and

Marion Ellis:

there's no silver bullet or solution.

Marion Ellis:

We just have to accept where we are in the, on the one hand I often hear people

Marion Ellis:

talking about drawing a line to the past.

Marion Ellis:

We've got to move forward with diversity, equity, inclusion, but so many women.

Marion Ellis:

You know, their experiences have been, you, you even not so long ago,

Marion Ellis:

you didn't have, maternity rights.

Marion Ellis:

A lot of women weren't allowed to work after they had their children.

Marion Ellis:

You know, you've got the whole later life menopause thing where

Marion Ellis:

women sort of drop off the scale.

Marion Ellis:

And even the most recent data that I've seen on.

Marion Ellis:

Professional membership of R I C S is the average membership for

Marion Ellis:

a man is something like 29 years.

Marion Ellis:

And for a woman it's 16.

Marion Ellis:

And we have to look at, why that is.

Marion Ellis:

And there's, that's an,

Carrie de Silva:

that's an interesting step.

Carrie de Silva:

I haven't

Marion Ellis:

heard that.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And it's, you know, there'll be lots of reasons for that.

Marion Ellis:

We just need to keep on talking about it so that we don't forget and so that

Marion Ellis:

we can improve and and move forward.

Marion Ellis:

And, it is a divisive subject.

Marion Ellis:

You know, I've been.

Marion Ellis:

You know, I'm excluding other people.

Marion Ellis:

And they can choose to, to feel that way.

Marion Ellis:

If I'm, cause I support women.

Marion Ellis:

I have a small women only group, and I'm not excluding them.

Marion Ellis:

I'm just saying.

Marion Ellis:

Sometimes, we need to speak out as, as a woman and the experiences that we have

Marion Ellis:

and other people can, can do the same.

Marion Ellis:

These are just some of the things that, that I that I see.

Marion Ellis:

So it's interesting to see that.

Marion Ellis:

Even back then I really barky I was talking about the same thing.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

Which is, Disappointing.

Marion Ellis:

I think in terms of, you know, we think we've progressed, but.

Marion Ellis:

Have we really?

Carrie de Silva:

Of course, surveying is a funny one, isn't it?

Carrie de Silva:

I, I can't quote you the latest stats, but when I was sort of doing some of this work

Carrie de Silva:

so the latest stats I'd got are probably 2019, 20 ish, and I think it was 17 1 7.

Carrie de Silva:

Do you know?

Carrie de Silva:

So and no.

Carrie de Silva:

I mean, law is more than 50%.

Carrie de Silva:

Women at intake medicine is more than 50% women at intake.

Carrie de Silva:

I know.

Carrie de Silva:

Triangle.

Carrie de Silva:

I mean, veterinary science is something like 80% fema.

Carrie de Silva:

There's none of no other of the big professions.

Carrie de Silva:

I think I mean engineering of course is a, is yeah.

Carrie de Silva:

But certainly finance law, meds and, you know, if you look at the, the

Carrie de Silva:

professions, none of them are so low.

Carrie de Silva:

I know.

Carrie de Silva:

It is improving.

Marion Ellis:

Yes.

Marion Ellis:

And, and I think that's the thing.

Marion Ellis:

You know, I hear.

Marion Ellis:

, you know, anything between 14% and 19%.

Marion Ellis:

But it's all about, it's all about the data.

Marion Ellis:

You know, if they've got the data, if people are declaring their gender, which

Marion Ellis:

obviously people don't, don't have to do.

Marion Ellis:

But also I think, you know, what's encouraging, and I've, I've seen

Marion Ellis:

this, that some people talk have said, there's 35% or 40% of new

Marion Ellis:

recruits are female, which is great.

Marion Ellis:

but then you think on the other end of the, the scale, how

Marion Ellis:

do we stop them disappearing?

Marion Ellis:

And also I think that's in part not just the whole challenges or not the,

Marion Ellis:

and opportunities that that women face, but also as our careers develop.

Marion Ellis:

You know, very often we come away from the technical side of doing

Marion Ellis:

the job to more management or training or supportive type roles.

Marion Ellis:

you know, what is a surveyor anymore?

Marion Ellis:

We're multiple disciplines doing multiple different things, within

Marion Ellis:

one professional membership.

Marion Ellis:

And I went through that with my own journey with that when I

Marion Ellis:

became a fellow, it was almost a, am I a real surveyor anymore?

Marion Ellis:

Marion, you know?

Marion Ellis:

And, and it's how we all, we all define it and yeah.

Marion Ellis:

Move

Carrie de Silva:

forward.

Carrie de Silva:

You.

Carrie de Silva:

, what I'm quite interested in is looking at, when you talk about, obviously

Carrie de Silva:

intake has improved and that's the case and I mentioned other professions

Carrie de Silva:

where it's much higher proportion of women, but it's still a triangle.

Carrie de Silva:

You know, there's, there's far few women as you go, up, up, up, up.

Carrie de Silva:

Obviously there's fewer of everybody, but proportionately, it's more men.

Carrie de Silva:

I mean, and I think that's, that's for several reasons, some of which impact

Carrie de Silva:

men as well and are not particularly healthy because there's been overt

Carrie de Silva:

discrimination and you know, yes, a woman goes, they, the interview panel don't

Carrie de Silva:

think they're suitable or how are they gonna manage children, all that nonsense.

Carrie de Silva:

I think maybe I'm naive that much of that has.

Carrie de Silva:

, but I think there are two or three reasons why either women are not

Carrie de Silva:

even putting themselves forward.

Carrie de Silva:

, and this is a really interesting one.

Carrie de Silva:

I went to a, a sort of senior academic event where there were talks from

Carrie de Silva:

VCs and things who were relatively low percentage of women are vice

Carrie de Silva:

cha vice chancellors or even, even professors and women aren't applying.

Carrie de Silva:

It's that old, that old chestnut, you know, if it says you need 10

Carrie de Silva:

skills and you've got nine of them, or why don't qualify for that job?

Carrie de Silva:

Whereas a man, I'll give it a go.

Carrie de Silva:

There is a lot of truth in that.

Carrie de Silva:

I know it's, you know, been hacked so they're not presenting.

Carrie de Silva:

I'm actually looking at some other things.

Carrie de Silva:

Well, why aren't they presenting?

Carrie de Silva:

Is it messages they've got from, you know, work or are there subliminal things?

Carrie de Silva:

I mean, a lot of people have done this, you know, research on public co, you know,

Carrie de Silva:

commemoration of women in public spaces.

Carrie de Silva:

This sounds a bit left field, but you know, a tiny percentage of public statues

Carrie de Silva:

are women compared to men as you know.

Carrie de Silva:

I'll be honest, largely just cuz it's personally interesting cause I like

Carrie de Silva:

finding about the biographies of the women, but also the serious point of

Carrie de Silva:

women being visible in public spaces.

Carrie de Silva:

As you'll know, I'm doing a Women in Street Names project, which

Carrie de Silva:

sounds where I'm, I'm looking at Streets named after Women Streets,

Marion Ellis:

not Street Corners,

Carrie de Silva:

Streets named after Women.

Carrie de Silva:

So the one, the bit I really enjoyed doing just for pleasure.

Carrie de Silva:

is finding the b I mean, you know, yeah.

Carrie de Silva:

We've, you know, Florence Nightingale Street or something.

Carrie de Silva:

We all know who Florence Nightingale is, but there's lots of streets named after

Carrie de Silva:

maybe women who were locally known, not nationally, or women who were, it was

Carrie de Silva:

named, you know, a hundred years ago.

Carrie de Silva:

We've forgotten who she is.

Carrie de Silva:

So I like delving into biographies, but again, huge you know, huge mismatch

Carrie de Silva:

in proportion gender-wise, and that.

Carrie de Silva:

Public visibility.

Carrie de Silva:

So women are not putting themselves forward for jobs for whichever reason.

Carrie de Silva:

The other one is they're not putting forward for jobs cuz they

Carrie de Silva:

don't want what senior roles bring.

Carrie de Silva:

No.

Carrie de Silva:

Whether that's senior political roles and you get all this

Carrie de Silva:

online rubbish or other roles.

Carrie de Silva:

Many other roles get a lot of unlike inappropriateness these

Carrie de Silva:

days or the working hours.

Carrie de Silva:

And those things are inappropriate for men.

Carrie de Silva:

Men are dealing with that.

Carrie de Silva:

I mean, quite famously, you know, Britain's always quoted as

Carrie de Silva:

having the longest working hours and the lowest productivity.

Carrie de Silva:

You know, and certainly if you look at Scandinavian countries, I mean, this

Carrie de Silva:

is very broad brush statement and you know, sure could be picked holes in,

Carrie de Silva:

but they do seem to have a better.

Carrie de Silva:

Balance and men, women and men, you know, are not expected to be all hours.

Carrie de Silva:

I mean, I, you know, the reason I told you I'm morphed into education really, you

Carrie de Silva:

know, you're still in the meeting at 10 o'clock at night and that's pretty common.

Carrie de Silva:

Yeah.

Carrie de Silva:

But that those sort of, you know, city firm type firms, you know,

Carrie de Silva:

nobody should be doing that.

Carrie de Silva:

I think, I think you're absolutely right.

Carrie de Silva:

It disproportionately the women that, that opt out of it and say, I just can't take.

Carrie de Silva:

Role, even though I may well get it cuz I don't want the whole what goes

Carrie de Silva:

with that and we should be re-looking at work in general, not only for women.

Carrie de Silva:

And

Marion Ellis:

then that I absolutely agree and I think Covid has how

Carrie de Silva:

had

Marion Ellis:

the, and we'll we'll see the potential to really level an address.

Marion Ellis:

Some of that I know certainly.

Marion Ellis:

. You know, some men I know work in a very toxic masculine culture

Marion Ellis:

where you've gotta be an early and you do stay late cuz that's the

Marion Ellis:

macho or the, the, the thing to do.

Marion Ellis:

But then with being at home, I know certainly my husband has seen more of

Marion Ellis:

my, my daughter than my son, you know, through, through, through lockdown.

Marion Ellis:

You know, when, when he was a, a, a similar age, but also it being much more

Carrie de Silva:

acceptable.

Carrie de Silva:

To

Marion Ellis:

be yourself and be the dad or to be the parent at work.

Marion Ellis:

I mean, I remember being on.

Marion Ellis:

On a call at seven o'clock at night and I'd had to put my, my son was little

Marion Ellis:

and I had to put him in front of some Power Rangers TV programs that, that

Marion Ellis:

he liked at the time, and I remember saying that on the call and it was

Marion Ellis:

literally like tumble wheat, Marion's talking about her kids again or whatever.

Marion Ellis:

Whereas, you know, now you see.

Marion Ellis:

When I think about the things my daughter got up to as my husband's on a, on a zip

Marion Ellis:

professional, you know, work Zoom call, and she comes in and puts, you know,

Marion Ellis:

things on his head and, and all sorts, you know, it's, and it's, it's normalizing

Marion Ellis:

those things for, for parents and, and

Carrie de Silva:

everybody.

Carrie de Silva:

And I think some high profile, you know, I mean it was, it

Carrie de Silva:

was done is a lighthearted way.

Carrie de Silva:

You know, at the end of the news and things, there were quite a few

Carrie de Silva:

very high profile people and there was that to zoom pictures of, you

Carrie de Silva:

know, some minister or something.

Carrie de Silva:

There

Marion Ellis:

was that there was that interview see if I can put a link into

Marion Ellis:

it of the, the guy being interviewed and then the little kid comes running through.

Marion Ellis:

I'll put a link to it.

Marion Ellis:

That was was quite funny.

Marion Ellis:

I find it funny cuz the little girl's name was Marion turned out.

Marion Ellis:

But, but I think, I think you're right.

Marion Ellis:

It's, and this is where, you know, all of us can be an ally for each other.

Marion Ellis:

To, to normalize because you're right.

Marion Ellis:

You know, we can't do what be our best if we're working those kind of hours.

Marion Ellis:

And it's all about breaking a pattern of culture.

Marion Ellis:

I think visibility, absolutely.

Marion Ellis:

You know, and we often talk about, you know, female role models and I saw

Marion Ellis:

a post on on LinkedIn just the other day, and it had a picture of the r i.

Marion Ellis:

President's past and, and future all, all women.

Marion Ellis:

And it said something like, yes, we've cracked it.

Marion Ellis:

And I just thought until my surveyor on a wet Tuesday in Margate feels included.

Marion Ellis:

No, we haven't.

Marion Ellis:

It's a start.

Marion Ellis:

Absolutely.

Marion Ellis:

But it's by, by no way means fixed.

Marion Ellis:

And in terms of visibility no one, I think there's a couple of things.

Marion Ellis:

No one has shown women.

Marion Ellis:

, you know, in terms of our confidence opportunity earlier in your career.

Marion Ellis:

And then, you know, as you get older you've got different things that happen.

Marion Ellis:

Just like when you come back from maternity leave and you

Marion Ellis:

think about the first day, will I remember my computer password?

Marion Ellis:

And remember what I do, you know, as a job?

Marion Ellis:

You know, we're not often supported in, in how to be.

Marion Ellis:

and the reason for that, and some of us do feel there's a tokenism there.

Marion Ellis:

I mean, I remember the first time I had to stand up at a conference

Marion Ellis:

and speak to 600 surveyors.

Marion Ellis:

Nobody showed me how or gave me support or training to do that.

Marion Ellis:

And yet it was okay, Marion will do it.

Marion Ellis:

You know?

Marion Ellis:

And so sometimes it's a.

Marion Ellis:

I guess, I think

Carrie de Silva:

we've got some that might have been the same.

Carrie de Silva:

I mean, that particular is example might have been the same and it could in a

Carrie de Silva:

young man in the Yeah, and it and it

Marion Ellis:

absolutely could be.

Marion Ellis:

But this is also why we need to support people and we also need to

Marion Ellis:

take responsibility for it to not just concentrate on the technical

Marion Ellis:

side of our job, but also look at the.

Marion Ellis:

, you know what?

Marion Ellis:

Awful description.

Marion Ellis:

The softer skills.

Marion Ellis:

Yes.

Marion Ellis:

You know, in terms of our confidence and being visible and, you know,

Marion Ellis:

putting ourselves out there and asking for the op opportunities.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

And I believe that we can do it.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Carrie de Silva:

Yeah.

Carrie de Silva:

I agree with the last sentence.

Carrie de Silva:

I think I'm a bit, oh.

Carrie de Silva:

Wouldn't, shouldn't say this in the middle of a podcast.

Carrie de Silva:

Probably.

Carrie de Silva:

I think I'm a leg.

Carrie de Silva:

I don't say less tolerant than you.

Carrie de Silva:

Tolerance probably the wrong word.

Carrie de Silva:

I mean, I do kind of think.

Carrie de Silva:

Work your way through or just do it in some instances.

Carrie de Silva:

But I also, on the other side of that coin yes, I think, I think the role models

Carrie de Silva:

and I think the good working practices that, I mean, some of the things you've

Carrie de Silva:

mentioned would be for all, all people.

Carrie de Silva:

I think.

Carrie de Silva:

What there is, and I do believe this, there is an intrinsic difference and

Carrie de Silva:

some wo, you know, Margaret Thatcher didn't need anybody to show her

Carrie de Silva:

cuz she's just that sort of person.

Carrie de Silva:

It's, you know, some women just get through as it were.

Carrie de Silva:

But I think as a generality there is that difference in like the

Carrie de Silva:

women not putting themselves forward cause they don't think they qualify.

Carrie de Silva:

There will be other men who don't tickle 10 boxes, they only tick nine.

Carrie de Silva:

But in general, , the men are more likely to say, well, I tick most of them.

Carrie de Silva:

I will try for that interview.

Carrie de Silva:

Whereas in general, the women are likely to say, oh, I'm not ready

Carrie de Silva:

for that yet, cuz I only tick nine and three quarter of the boxes.

Carrie de Silva:

So I think that's where, where the differences are.

Carrie de Silva:

And I think,

Marion Ellis:

And that comes back to support through your career, you know,

Marion Ellis:

in helping you feel confident and there's nothing worse, I think, or frustrating.

Marion Ellis:

when you have a role model out there who's clearly has, you know, has four

Marion Ellis:

hours sleep a night and will go off and run the country and sits there and

Marion Ellis:

says, well, I've got imposter syndrome.

Marion Ellis:

And it's just, and they may, they may well have, but it's not relatable

Marion Ellis:

and you want to see the journey of how they, they actually got there.

Marion Ellis:

I dunno if you've read, there's A really interesting Harvard Business

Marion Ellis:

Review report called Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome.

Marion Ellis:

Oh no, I

Carrie de Silva:

haven't.

Marion Ellis:

I'm, oh, there you go.

Marion Ellis:

Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

One, one for you.

Marion Ellis:

I'll put, put the link in the, the show notes.

Marion Ellis:

And it's interesting because explains the background to imposter syndrome

Marion Ellis:

and how that, how that came about, but it also talks about actually people

Marion Ellis:

don't feel welcome and included, and therefore you always feel like

Marion Ellis:

the odd one out and that can happen.

Marion Ellis:

I mean, I see it a lot for men.

Marion Ellis:

I see it a lot with surveyors in terms of their technical ability

Marion Ellis:

and how qualified somebody is.

Marion Ellis:

I see it certainly on a neurodiversity front, but there are practical

Marion Ellis:

things, you know, for, you know, if someone's not considered.

Marion Ellis:

, you know, on a building site, how are you gonna use the loo or shoved all the,

Marion Ellis:

you know, the storage materials in there.

Marion Ellis:

It's the little things that can make someone feel welcome and included and

Marion Ellis:

all of those things in your road to make you feel, well, I'm not good enough

Carrie de Silva:

to be here.

Carrie de Silva:

And I think that I imposs, I mean, that's what led me on to, as I

Carrie de Silva:

say, the street names, which Okay.

Carrie de Silva:

Is half just interesting.

Carrie de Silva:

But there is a serious point about this, that we don't have examples.

Carrie de Silva:

And I mean, I, it was like, Conference I went to some years ago where there

Carrie de Silva:

were vice chancellors, you know, very senior women saying that, you know,

Carrie de Silva:

they should have applied earlier or they know that women aren't.

Carrie de Silva:

And that was maybe I'm not the best person to speak to this about mm-hmm.

Carrie de Silva:

, because I, it hasn't been a big thing for me.

Carrie de Silva:

I have worked in a lot of all male environments and I just, Bow on.

Carrie de Silva:

And you know, I don't, I'm not terribly diffident as I

Carrie de Silva:

think you probably know Marion.

Carrie de Silva:

But it was a, it was surprising to me, and I know a lot of women are like that, but

Carrie de Silva:

what surprised me was very senior women.

Carrie de Silva:

, you know, very senior women saying this had been an issue and they didn't

Carrie de Silva:

apply for things or women just below professor, just below VC saying, oh,

Carrie de Silva:

they're not applying because, and then I really did start to see, well, there is

Carrie de Silva:

a agenda and I, I read more about this.

Carrie de Silva:

And that's the sort of thing that I'm looking at these messages.

Carrie de Silva:

Not just the street names and, and the statues, but as you say, other things in

Carrie de Silva:

the workplace that can be done to give that support and the right message that

Carrie de Silva:

people can, if they want, I mean the other half and that's it, is it they want, I'm

Carrie de Silva:

quite keen on getting the message out cuz I think there's too much, you know,

Carrie de Silva:

going back and I'm quite a bit older than you, you know, people got, got a job

Carrie de Silva:

and they were in it and that was fine.

Carrie de Silva:

there's almost a, people are feeling guilty and you know, they're not

Carrie de Silva:

ambitious enough or they, they haven't until they go to the next stage, which

Carrie de Silva:

might be more pressure than they want.

Carrie de Silva:

There are other things in life and actually absolutely applying if you're

Carrie de Silva:

not applying, cuz you, you've got imposter syndrome and you don't think

Carrie de Silva:

you're ready for it and all that.

Carrie de Silva:

Well that's, you just don't wanting, but if you just don't want it,

Carrie de Silva:

actually I do want to, you know, get home earlier or work part-time

Carrie de Silva:

that wouldn't get work for that job.

Carrie de Silva:

And I think that is quite an issue nowadays that people feel they've got to

Carrie de Silva:

go other, there's some sort of failure.

Carrie de Silva:

I mean, I know some of, some of it's got wider issues and money, you know, that

Carrie de Silva:

goes with the, with the bigger job and, and the whole, the whole picture of.

Carrie de Silva:

But I do think there's more pressure on that, that people feel now, which

Carrie de Silva:

I think we need to get away with.

Carrie de Silva:

There is more to life than just work.

Carrie de Silva:

Hey, absolutely.

Marion Ellis:

Absolutely Carrie.

Marion Ellis:

And it's all about how we define success.

Marion Ellis:

You know, are you, have you been qualified the longest?

Marion Ellis:

Do you have the biggest business?

Marion Ellis:

Do you earn the most money Where.

Marion Ellis:

We'd all like to be healthy.

Marion Ellis:

Quite frankly.

Marion Ellis:

We'd like to see our, our friends and family and kids.

Marion Ellis:

And I think this is where understanding your values, what's important to

Marion Ellis:

you is really key because that gives you that, that grounding.

Marion Ellis:

and so that you don't have to run for president or whatever it is you Yeah.

Marion Ellis:

You're encouraged to to do and you can be happy and confident with it.

Marion Ellis:

And, and for those, you know, then looking at saying, well, how do

Marion Ellis:

we get women through the pipeline?

Marion Ellis:

Well forcing, as, you know, square perg into a round hole.

Marion Ellis:

No, I wouldn't wanna work all those hours and not see my kids no matter

Marion Ellis:

how much support I had at home, you know, with an ironing lady

Marion Ellis:

and a cleaner and, and whatever.

Marion Ellis:

We just don't want to do it, and therefore it all needs to change.

Marion Ellis:

But I absolutely see it has to change for, for men too.

Carrie de Silva:

No, I mean, a very concrete example I told you

Carrie de Silva:

I was heavily involved with rural practice courses for, for many years.

Carrie de Silva:

Still am the number of stu the entry requirements are moderate.

Carrie de Silva:

A level wise, you know, you need some good A levels, but you don't

Carrie de Silva:

need three A's, let's be honest, the number of students we didn't get.

Carrie de Silva:

But every year there were students with three a's a day level.

Carrie de Silva:

Even a stars who were told their schools had really tried to put them off.

Carrie de Silva:

Yes.

Carrie de Silva:

Oh, with three A's you could go and do law or something.

Carrie de Silva:

Law.

Carrie de Silva:

All these schools think doing laws of success.

Carrie de Silva:

The number of law graduates they get trading contractor through the floor.

Carrie de Silva:

Then they're in jobs that they don't like.

Carrie de Silva:

Cuz actually a lot of the law students don't like law.

Carrie de Silva:

They're not doing it cause they're interest.

Carrie de Silva:

Schools and parents think it's a good job in inverted commerce and it's

Carrie de Silva:

lucrative if you go into the right branch.

Carrie de Silva:

Not all law is lucrative, and we only saw the ones that got

Carrie de Silva:

through all that that said no.

Carrie de Silva:

, I want to be a land agent because I know about that as a profession.

Carrie de Silva:

It's this lifestyle I want.

Carrie de Silva:

And the days when land agents Tetons hate me for the lifestyle are gone,

Carrie de Silva:

they actually can turn, they might not, they're not like the commercial

Carrie de Silva:

guys and girls, but they certainly turn a perfectly reasonable living.

Carrie de Silva:

And I thought, well, how many really good people are the schools putting

Carrie de Silva:

off cuz they think these other careers are so-called, you know, better.

Carrie de Silva:

and, and that's it, isn't it?

Carrie de Silva:

It's pretty.

Carrie de Silva:

And survey in general.

Carrie de Silva:

I would add to that.

Carrie de Silva:

Obviously I feel they're all, I think surveying in general, that they

Carrie de Silva:

were coming with their A stars and a's at a level the schools would be

Carrie de Silva:

directing them into law and finance.

Carrie de Silva:

And they may not, they might be fine, but they may neither, you know, they may not

Carrie de Silva:

be as happy, it may not be what they want.

Carrie de Silva:

So I think that's something surveying in general needs to, to get over.

Marion Ellis:

And, and as we're recording this today, my kids are actually on

Marion Ellis:

off because their school's on strike.

Marion Ellis:

. I, I think that's a really important important point, Carrie.

Marion Ellis:

And I think I was at Ann Gray's, you know, the new RICS President's inauguration

Marion Ellis:

event a couple of days ago as we, as we record this, and she, in her, her, her

Marion Ellis:

speech, she talked about how some, I can't remember what the stat was, something

Marion Ellis:

like 80 or 90% of Gen Z, you know, wants better quality life work, meaningful work.

Marion Ellis:

If you can, you imagine if someone with that high caliber, three a stars

Marion Ellis:

went into nursing or social care, or you know, or surveying, you know,

Marion Ellis:

and, and the difference they can make at, at that, you know, and at

Marion Ellis:

the moment to be not as great jobs.

Marion Ellis:

You know, it's a,

Carrie de Silva:

I suppose, for the whole profession and they

Carrie de Silva:

can really shine themselves.

Carrie de Silva:

Whereas actually if they go to, into law, you know, there's no guarantees

Carrie de Silva:

and it's, you know, there's loads of other people cause they, yeah.

Carrie de Silva:

You know, it's, it's just, I think there's a lot of ignorance to the career.

Carrie de Silva:

I mean, we've talked about this just off, off, off off podcasts, you know,

Carrie de Silva:

over these last years, haven't we?

Carrie de Silva:

You know, the, the recruitment of people into surveying.

Carrie de Silva:

And it's, I think that's certainly the scope and there are jobs.

Carrie de Silva:

. I mean, all these other things that the schools think are great

Carrie de Silva:

careers, there aren't the jobs there.

Carrie de Silva:

And this is why we need to

Marion Ellis:

really be visible, show the kind of work we do,

Marion Ellis:

the difference that it makes.

Marion Ellis:

You know, I know our ICS and others, I did a webinar recently on again, I'll

Marion Ellis:

put a link to the show notes so we could show notes these you know, on getting

Marion Ellis:

into schools or, and understanding what's, what's available, but if we don't

Marion Ellis:

talk about it, but also with meaning.

Marion Ellis:

, you know, who would really wanna work?

Marion Ellis:

If you tell the truth, how much you actually earn, the hours you put

Marion Ellis:

in, how miserable things are, how on earth does that, that inspire anyone?

Marion Ellis:

And so that's why I think we should talk about love

Marion Ellis:

surveying , why we love what we do.

Marion Ellis:

, oh, Carrie thanks ever so much for your time today.

Marion Ellis:

That's been a really interesting conversation and I'm sure people

Marion Ellis:

will get get a lot from that.

Carrie de Silva:

Well, thank you.

Carrie de Silva:

Thank you, Marion.

Carrie de Silva:

Thanks for listening and I

Carrie de Silva:

hope

Marion Ellis:

you enjoyed the podcast.

Marion Ellis:

Don't forget, you can find the links and notes in the show notes or on

Marion Ellis:

the Love Surveying website, where you can also find the webinars for the

Marion Ellis:

hub sessions and also take a sneaky peek at the Surveyor Hub directory.

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The Surveyor Hub Podcast
For surveyors who love surveying

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About your host

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Marion Ellis

As a chartered surveyor with a background in defect and valuation claims, Marion has first-hand experience of why we make mistakes and what we need to do to support ourselves to prevent them. A Fellow member of the RICS and qualified customer experience professional, Marion is passionate about empowering people. At Love Surveying, she provides the support, coaching and networking surveyors and property professionals need to handle career challenges confidently and navigate the right business journey for them. Founder of The Surveyor Hub podcast and community Marion also supports surveyors in business through her coaching and mentoring programmes. Marion is an Ambassador for Lionheart.